Promotion in the reserves

last SG · 2004-11-21T14:27:37+00:00

Anyone seen any minister, MP or perm sec during reservist who’s not a commisioned officer?

bcoy SG

I could be wrong - but wasn't the ex-PM Goh a corporal?

wuming78 SG

does it matter? dont think they ever get called up for reservist.

nextdayagain SG

1 SUPER coporal that became our prime minister? So watch out for all coporals out there, do not cross their paths, anyone of them may be the next prime minister.

nextdayagain SG

can any one verify this?

cornyfish2000 SG

Wah, just imagine the CDF saluting him... "Yes Corporal SIR!!" Mr. Green

bcoy SG

I want to add – by the time he was a minister or PM, he was longer serving in the SAF, I think.

Ritterkreuz SG

Although it is rather off topic, Adolf Hitler is only an LCP before he became commander in chief. Guess nothing is impossible under the sun…...

Moxie SG

I doubt GCK did NS.

He's born in 1941, which renders him:

-- too old for the post-independence (full-time) enlistment. He would've been 26 years old when 1967 came around.

-- too young for the limited conscription (part-time, via public ballot) during the self-governing period. That policy lasted for just a year, 1954-55, before student riots ended it; GCK would've been just 13-14 years old then.

His resume http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/smgoh.htm doesn't suggest any such opportunity during the intervening years either: 1955-60 at RI; 1961-1964 at University of S'pore (BA studies); 1964-69 in the Administrative Service (1966-1967 at Williams College (MA studies); & thereafter joined NOL.

nextdayagain SG

Will Dr Goh Keng Swee (defence minister, 1965) be a better candidate? I believe we was a coporal with the Singapore Volunteer Corps, under the British.

Obersturmfuhrer SG

Der Fuhrer was a corporal. By the time he took over the Nationalist Socialist Party, he had Captain Ernst Rohm working for him.

The situation right now would be of similar context. The CDF is currently outranked by a BG and an R Adm.

nextdayagain SG

How can CDF be outranked by a BG or a R Adm. CDF has at least 2 stars on each of his shoulders, while BG 1 star, and a R Adm. 1 star also?

nextdayagain SG

Unit bonding is something that grows when servicemen do charging up hill togther, eating meals together, running together, etc. This is not an incentive.

An incentive will be more of either a tangible or intangible rewards (monetary or non-monetary terms) that encourages each servicemen, individually, to excel or contribute further in the reserves. I believe money will not be the main incentive but rather a secondary one. For this case, promotion within the reserves as an incentive for servicemen (may it be within the enlisted ranks, officer ranks, or an enlisted promoting to an officer).

dra5guards SG

My dear, can I ask you?. Do you know who your Minister of Defence is?
And do you know Minister George Yeo?

nextdayagain SG

No need to ask me, go to this website -> http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/ Rolling Eyes

Moxie SG

No, unit bonding is a huge incentive, if the goal is to induce BN-level competency in executing mission goals. It's been enough of a stimulus to let reservist units achieve REDCON status & operate alongside their active cohorts.

You know this guilt complex which Vietnam vets go through having about a comrade dying or getting hurt instead of them? Not many reservists will admit this, but that feeling of "culpability" exists here too - albeit not as emotional. It usually occurs whenever someone misses an ICT callup he could've otherwise make adjustments to attend. (Not referring to the genuine deferment cases, though kudos to the SAF for tweaking the conscience by enforcing "penitent" make-up ICTs with an unfamiliar unit.) With the original outfit, the non-attendee knows his reservist colleagues usually have to cover for his absence, i.e. taking on double duties without added financial compensation. Hence the remorse, however fleeting.

Tangible rewards like promotions don't really work cuz (a) I think you're conjuring to apply civilian meritocracy values to the military & (b) reservist training is part-time for citizen soldiers & most don't want on the additional workload/responsibilities/obligations that come with it. To quip, "SAF = Serve & F***-off." To get promoted usually entails returning to attend extra courses or briefings (outside of the ICT sphere) &, from my anecdotes, the maximum 40-days liability really test the civilian-employers patience.

The reality is also that there's plenty of makeshift KAHs & junior commanders going around already, as NSman units try to function without the deferred personnel. But the understanding is it's only a temporary arrangment, cuz a parallel advancing of rank would infer a permanent replacement. My own unit lost an outstanding Recce Officer thus. I mean, his successor was more than adequate (& popular) but once he got his 3rd bar, the original guy couldn't return back & had to be posted out.

Re: "enlisted promoting to an officer." That'll only happen ad-hoc in crisis or wartime scenarios. In peacetime, enlistees would have to be redirected back to extensive OCS training, & thus applicable for those wanting to sign-on. Even more doubtful for reservists, given we've even got senior WO regulars commanding units nowdays without they being commissioned as officers.

nextdayagain SG

Wrong. The idea of applying civilian meritocracy values may not be best for the military. Rather, in this case, is more of rewarding reservist who are willing to take up more challenges within the reserves (by mean of promotion, may it be within the enlisted ranks or enlisted to an officer), I believe and have witness plenty of them, and are deligently and proactively doing their national service. Even if these NSmen get promoted up, I believe, they will be too happy to take the new challenge, even with the additional courses.

If everyone would to take NS as a additional workload and something to frown upon, (something that I believe you are one), how can you answer to your country?

Moxie SG

1stly, the last sentence's a knee-jerk accusation - just cuz I disagree with ya? P.S. Get to know the regulars here 1st too, before questioning their loyalty.

If you kena promoted & willingly accept the heavier commitments, that's fine. But give more credit to those normal reservists who answer each call-up without fail (despite periodic gripes & inconveniences) & contribute their lot (with no chances of advancement).

With the military itself, the reality is that the NCO & officer rank is completely leadership- & responsibility-based, & that there's only limited appointments available at the levels. The SAF regular side already has to institutionally phase out (still-capable) signed-on'ers earlier, in order to defect repeating the Thais' infamous "10 generals for every subordinate" experience.

Translated to the small-combat unit level, we don't want an overabundance of CPLs & 3SGs promoted "on merit" but without the accompanying job scope. How many ICs & sub-ICs can you create at the risk of over-micromanaging?

I went through the pre-Specialist system where all full A-Levels holders got advanced to CPL, creating unhappiness from the SAFINCO-trained who had to share the same hierarchial rank (& common duties like COS/Guard 2IC). I got the promotion then too &, while it's not strictly on merit, the formal-leadership gap between my kind & the true CPLs wasn't resolved. The SAF's attempt at bridging with the "CPL 1st Class" didn't take off.

How to reconcile for today, say, a new "merit" 3SG signaller vs. a "SISPEC" 3SG - can he become Signals SGT & why (since it wasn't a battlefield stepup)? Doesn't an ex-RSM being newly commissioned wholly demolish the structure & purpose of the whole WOSE corps? I'm not ruling out such advancements altogether, but they must occur only in extraordinary circumstances - rather than as a rote reward.

The rank-promotion idea is unpractical, but your more-general suggestion of "rewards" do exist (& are continually augmented) by the Government - except they're more correctly termed as "recognition". In particular, the implementation of RECORD recommendations have been much appreciated. Granted, many of us won't necessarily hanker for the SAFRA resort & country-club facilities, or benefit from the bigger allowances for KAHs.

Nonetheless, there's the preferential taxes, preferential share ownership top-up, enhanced IPPT/marksmanship monetary awards, finetuning of ICT stints, shortening of ICT cycle, 10-year passports for NSFs, decentralizing exit-permit applications, et al. - all of them formalized only within the last decade or so. That's plenty of material gratitude, a big change from my uncle's own "mah see sar kor" ("also $3") reservist days.

nextdayagain SG

This is what this topic is about; rewarding the normal reservists who have sacrifice their sweat and time in the service of their country with the prospect of promotion (may it be within the enlisted ranks, or an enlisted promoted to an officer). As for the other incentives, I believe the Government and RECORD have done a wonderful job, and I hope they will continue to do so.

I also understand that in a organizational there can be so many workers, fewer supervisor, even fewer managers, and unltimately 1 person at the top of the organization (i.e. too many cooks spoil the soup), and that promotion is also hugely dependent on the availability of higher appointments and opportunity to rise within the reserves.

However, this does not mean that rank promotion is impractical, but rather if the NSmen is willing, give him the opportunity to rise within the reserves.

Moxie SG

Still bleating the same stuff. Any new tangent at all?

if the NSmen is willing, give him the opportunity to rise

Why so - as they say, your grandfather's army, ah? ~lol~

But, yes, there's such exploitable lobang with the present rank system for reservists (except, again, it won't be as a rote reward).

I'm more of a traditionalist in preferring the old classification, which was basic but most sensible;

CO/RSM -------------> OC/CSM -------> PC/PS -----------------> SL-HIC/2IC
(MAJ/WO2-SSG) (CPT/SGT) (LTA-2LT/SGT-CPL) (CPL/LCP)

IMO The current rank structure is too politician-influenced & rendered too complicated. For all its "more affirmative" & "visibly upgradable" rationale, I think it can create more bureaucratic pettiness for the military hierarchy. Eg. Soldier A, for all his accomplishments, can't be promoted to above the incumbent Soldier's B's rank without accompanying new job responsibilities.

The post-'93 WOSE reforms that IMO concerned frontline reservists most were;

(a) the WO, upon affirmed as the 4th "executive" commander (joining MAJ, CPT & subalterns), is now too senior for RSM postings. Its rank is now recognized as equivalent to CPT level.

(b) the former NCO corps gained 5 separate ranks (MSG/SSG/1SG/2SG/3SG), & this is where reservists can get most advancements. A junior commander can definately make 2SG before he stands down; ditto 1SG for the more senior specialist KAHs. SSG-to-MSG isn't really a big deal; IMO it's more to offset against the new WO status, but what it does confirm is that the RSM now holds a Spec rank (albeit senior one).

[Specialist-to-WO now requires attending a formal tri-service Joint-WO course, kinda the WOSE version of OCS, before getting promoted. Quite rare for reservists.]

(c) enlisted men now gains the CPL & PFC along with the LCP. No rank-pulling allowed here; the hierarchy differentiation's more with between, say, HIC (head IC) & 2IC instead.

Overall, if you think about it, the combat-unit appointments (see above) hadn't fundamentally changed, nor has the general partitioning of the rank & file:

Officer corps -------> NCO/Specialist Corps ------> Enlisted men

Regardless of specific rank, it still requires extraordinary circumstances for non-regulars to advance out of each scission.

But there's no obstacle stopping Specs from being promoted within its "internal" grades, based on ICT performances & pragmatic unit needs. Ambitious reservists can maneuver themselves into filling in for missing incumbents &, if they continue to defer the next call-up too, then fight to be a permanent replacement.

I have no problems either if the SAF elects to withhold the LTA promotions before ORD, & wait till after the 2nd ICT. The junior officers tend to mature more as NSmen than they did as NSFs anyway.

Among enlisted men, CPLs have no business advancing to a leadership rank like 3SG as a peacetime "reward." &, for now, LCPs can't make CPL without the post-O Levels cert either. But, that's said there's nothing from stopping enlisted men from switching postings, vis-&-vis against unit needs. Combat-fit signallers & combat medics could all along be deployed to any Formation. Even for same-Formation troops, working with a 155mm howitzer is totally different from the Primus. Active-time PTIs (Specs, mind you) & MPs revert back to INF for reservist.

What all these examples required is a short induction course, or at worst on-the-job training. That's how I became a mono-intake instructor, & how one Malay reservist colleague of mine successfully switched from driver to RP (after a few ICTs of persuading the MTO to release his services). But "other ranks" climbing to 3SG or CPL rank - forget it.

What's your rank & vocation?

Moxie SG

Double post.

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