SEAD

Johnston SG

You originally said "who cares who comes first, the rifles are identical, except the trigger area."

I refuted that.
You came out with a MINDEF Press Release which tells us nothing.

I may be losing ground on the SEAD front, but darn right i can still hold it on the HK front.

Hold a second on the "Unique PSG-1 grip".

Hey. It's unique. Very unique.

Laplace SG

While I also agree that the best option is to destroy all anti-aircraft assets in the entire theater, that might not be feasible given time, economical or capability constrains. So I thought the best way out was to concentrate all resources on certain interdiction routes, making it safer for other aircrafts.

At least, that's what I think the Coalition did in the first Gulf War and Bosnia. Confused

Then again I might think wrong.

storywolf SG

Yes I am telling you that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destory the enemy's Shorad and v-shorads defenses ! The reason is because the enemy AA are not there for show, they are there to protect something important like enemy tanks BNs and artillery BNs too ! You can just move your artillery close to shoot, without getting kick in the asses by the ground units ! That is why the SEAD mission is for, to remove AA defense then use aircraft to take out enemy ground unit, before your artillery units or armour move forward !

Without suppressing the AA and take out enemy ground units, your artillery will not even last 10 mins after they fire their 1st rounds !

storywolf SG

SpecOps may have important roles in the suppression of AD but will be limited.

Imagine, I put 6 AD batteries all around a huge jungle area! But you don't have exact fix on them, so you send in teams of SpecOps. 1st you need time to do insertion, of course will be inserted way outside the AD zone, so let say 10km out. SpecOps have to march 10km to place and then still have to search ! What I am saying is why the ADs are there in the 1st place, they must be defending some very important units like armor or infantries bns. So what the chance of your SpecOps wandering around and not engage any units ? even if they avoid everyone, how can they time their attack together, for once 1 AD is hit, the rest will be alerted to intruders.

What I am saying is in this case it is faster and easier to use SEAD planes to do the job. Imagine if you fly 3 helicopter to insert troops, I could have flown 2 SEAD mission already. By the time the troops moving to 10Km into zone, I would have flown a few more SEAD to take out the rest ADs already, and ground strikes can already hit enemy troops on the ground, with my armour and infantry Bns already move forward. I would instead use the SpecOps to look for the ground amour or infantry bns, to direct air strikes on them instead.

Thinking that Iraq Scub hunting is like hunting for ADs is totally wrong concept. First the scuds are playing hide and seek, they are not there to defence anything, so that area doesn't have concentration of enemy, thus allowing SpecOp to run around freely.

foxtrout8 SG

I disagree with you Storywolf.

Dun mistaken me by using the Scud hunters as an inspiration to my idea. You are having an arguement that my idea of using SOF troops is not ideal because AA pieces will be heavily guarded by enemy troops. I think your arguement have some faults because all of us know that SOF troops are trained to sabotage fixed or unfixed targets eventhough they are heavily protected. If in anycase SOF will not be called for action just because most of the targets are heavily guarded and friendly airstrikes can settle the problems, must as well stop training such troops in sabotage missions that they are so familar in.

My two cents.

Laplace SG

Wasn't it reported somewhere that SOFs were deployed with anti-material high powered sniper rifles to take out Iraqi anti-air radar dishes during the Gulf War?

If so how effective were these missions?

branzzz SG

yep, the xm107 super long range .50 calibre sniper rifles. seems they were so successful that the US army ordered an even larger calibre version. the xm107 holds the world record for a confirmed kill at 1700+ metres.

John Ching SG

As all of you already know, the U.S has many Spec Ops units at their diposal to carry out whatever ops. During the 1st Gulf war, the fact was no 1 knew how to deploy all this Spec Ops. It was te Brits SAS that suggested to the U.S ally Commander Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf that they volunteer for the Scud hunting missions. Of, SAS having clsoe ties with their U.S counter parts, D-boys were included into the hunt.

SEAL teams part of the play in the whole grand plan was to block of ships heading towards or out of Iraq. They also had their usual duty of beach recon. Plans changed when a SEAL officer came up with a plan that would ensure the safety of the MARINEs assualt by staging a diversion trick.

Green Berets were the most important Spec Ops for all the allies involved in the war. Because there weren't enough interpreters to communicate between the various ally forces, Green Berets were assigned to the various ally forces to act as interpreters & co-ordinators between the U.S forces & its allies.

At the end of the 1st Gulf war, Gen Norman Schwarzkopf gave a speech which gave glory to the Spec Ops( not just the U.S & Brits forces ) for their part in the war.

John Ching SG

Not that I intend on joining in the girlie fight but its almost true that H&K sniper rifles look alike.

PSG 1 looks like MSG 90
MSG 90A1 looks like MSG 3

However, I think their differences are really base on their deployment purpose. They may look like sniper rifle system but they can also be marksman rifle. Mr. Green

chunyong SG

msg is a 'toned down' version of psg-1. if u need quite rapid and long range accuracy, psg-1 is the one....other than dat...its AI....

sgFish SG

mmm...can a hole in a radar dish totally kill the capabilities of that radar?

storywolf SG

Yes SOF is train to sabotage, even heavily guarded . They may be better train and better armed, but they are still human !

SOF always need to prey on the enemy lapse in security and element of surprise. You can have one team hit one AD site, by then enemy is alerted, with the element of surprise lost and other teams will find themselves hard to sabotage the rest of the ADs.

What my other point which you totally ignore it timing. Using SpecOps team cost more time !

branzzz SG

the use of snipers to counter these threats lies with the sniper's ability to take out important sections of the unit, such as officers, radar operators and maybe hardware such as generators. imagine a scenario where a enemy pilot is checking his helicopter. the sniper can choose to snipe the pilot, or send a bullet into the engine compartment, which effectively gorunds the helicopter. i believe snipers are trained in the vital areas of the radar so as to render it useless by hitting certain areas. of course, with the xm109 sniper rifle that the us army is using, the rifle can also penetrate armour and hit APCs.

http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles.htm

John Ching SG

What does "toned down" mean? Shocked
Isn't it still a rifle? Doesn't it have a trigger? Mr. Green
Whatever your meaning maybe, for long range & accuracy, I'll stick to a single-shot bolt action sniper rifle system of whatever brand. No offence to the boys of H&K but their semi-auto rifles are costly & heavy. Smile
However, if I do need to use a semi-auto sniper rifle system, I'll most likely go for stoner's SR25. The cost is about USD$2,500. And its made in the good ol' U.S of As. Mr. Green

Johnston SG

He meant, after some checking up at Hkpro.com or something similar, that the main difference between PSG1 and MSG90 is their cost.
Among other things.

Which are:
Nato standard scope mount, instead of permanent Hensoldt scope.
ambidextrous safety
different lower reciever (Not civilian legal, WHY)
Ambidextrous magazine release.

Yes, and a Revolutionary war era Muzzleloader rifle is also a rifle.
If you took one and tried to shoot it out with a SAF rifleman, he could pump his whole webbing load of magazines at you before you could load and fire.

Johnston SG

Are you aware what the definition of SHORAD and V-SHORAD AD systems are?
These range from:
20mm Vulcan/ZSU-23-4 SPAAG
Chapparal SP SAM system
Manportable SAMs such as the Stinger
Towed AA guns such as the ZSU-23-2
Vehicle mounted AA guns
Vehicle mounted short range SAMs.

We are not asking the artillery to attack the systems guarding the enemy arty assets, but the systems supporting the armor/infantry.

Last i saw, SAF FH-88 guns had a maximum range of 39 klicks (with ERFB-BB rounds of course). Did you think we'd be using Primuses and going up to engage them with direct fire?

I would not be saying "Arty SEAD missions" if such missions have not previously been fired, and recorded, and told about in lessons/field manuals.

Can you tell me, if artillery can be tasked to support a advance against armor, why it cannot be tasked to fire missions against the identified AA assets?

Finally:
Using SpecOps team cost more time !

Time, is what the attacker has a surfeit of.
We do not know now, if US SOCOM had inserted teams into Iraq prior to the first Iraq Gulf War.
But we DO know they had teams in country before the Second Gulf War.

We can presume that among other things, they were conducting reconnaisance and identifying key targets such as command complexes.
Who is to say that just before H-hour, they were ordered to disable any known radar complexes by firing a couple .50 HEAP rounds at said radar dish?

Or a missile or two.

The point im making now is that SEAD is a combined effort, everybody can do a part. Even the grunt.

John Ching SG

Yes, I would die immediately from the bullets of modern arms. But the poor SAF rifleman would die slowly from lead poisonning. Twisted Evil

Oh yes! For all you KERRY lovers, BUSH won!!! Yeehah!
4 more years of anti-terrorism.

Johnston SG

yes, but starting from an weapon empty position, with ammo on your webbing, you could not possibly load your muzzle loader fast enough to shoot the rifleman.

load. chamber. safety off.
shoot.

how many steps you need for a muzzleloader?

John Ching SG

Hmm! You never state that in your earlier post. Rolling Eyes
Well, of course, logically I would be dead if the enemy soldier ambushes me. However, if its a fight on honorable terms, then outcome would be as stated in my earlier post. Mr. Green

Anyway, I just want to add that Sen. John Kerry has conceded the Presidential race to Bush. Yeehah! Twisted Evil

chunyong SG

msg performs almost as well as psg-1...but psg-1's tripod not very gd....msg-90 also. SR25 is rather famous and popular now. best is still AI....HK is gd for g36 and mp-5 and usp series...other than dat, its other stuff are way overpriced, especially psg-1.

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