4 SAF commandos charged over death of NSman

last SG · 2004-06-09T15:54:10+00:00

no offense... i think tat tough training should not be removed from the army.. u notice recently the training is not tat tough in saf? not tat safety issues...

vleelee SG

The fact is someone has died. And where the bucks stops is kind of secondary here. We need to see some accountability, and we need to see some 'punishment' to atone for the 'crime'. If there's a car accident involving a drunk driver, you don't sue all the way to the car manufacturer and LTA right? You just make sure the driver pays for it. Then you think of all the new laws that should be passed down. In the mean time you make sure that you make this case so visible and scary that people are detered from drunk driving. This is what is happening now.

The debate on how tough the trainings should be and how far limits should be pushed, I don't really think it applies here. The fact is that the training was abused. And of all ranks, officers should know better. And if they think that abusing trainees is a fun thing to do in the morality that it toughens the trainees up, then I think all the more the punishment needs to be compounded. Face it, instructors abusing trainees is more a matter of ego than good intentions.

If we don't draw the lines very clearly, then there's really no end to it. Who's to say that survival training will not expand to sexual assaults and drugs - all this just to prove a point? Then why not we introduce the wet towel torture and the force water feeding torture just to prove a point that realistic training is really 'realistic' training?

Accidents is one thing. Homocide is another. We know that there are risks in operating heavy machinery, jumping out of planes and handling live ordnance. Yes, accidents happen. Even the highly regulated construction industry with professional engineers and constant safety checks cannot prevent accidents. But you don't see engineers walking around the construction site wipping the indian worker to work faster - its not building the pyramids.
What we have to do is to make sure that the mentality of the instructors is not one of ego and abusing trainees. Its worse if the trainee has this thinking at the back of his mind that he's NSF, serve his 2.5 years, suffer the abuse for the course and then ROD and forget about it. It only compounds the whole mentality.
Its a very fine line and there are many grey areas - I know. But my parting statement is that we cannot allow and accept abuses.

Gedanken SG

My point exactly. The two lieutenants are the drunk drivers in your example. What do the other two have to do with it? They're not the ones who did the actual dunking/driving.

However, the powers-that-be seem to want to go down the track of going up the line here, but they seem to selectively stop at a point where that line of logic is not carried so far as to do harm to themselves. Teo Chee Hean wants to have the OC and course commander charged, but if you draw along that line, it leads right back to him. It's obvious that Teo's covering his own arse, isn't he? Typical bloody politician.

What I am pointing out is that by conducting the case in this cowardly way, RADM Teo is making a public farce of Sgt Hu's death.

vleelee SG

I agree with you on Teo's cowardly way in handling this matter. Seems that LTA, MOE and MINDEF will always be in the -ve limelight of the media. These 3 particluar bodies are controlled by politicians, not by leadership in the respective fields.

The more I read the article, the more fuming mad I become. But can someone enlighten me on the part of 'keep digging his nose so that he cannot hold his breath under water'? I can't quite visualise this.

Icemoon SG

To be fair, our Defense Minister left the military quite long ago. When did he start his political career?

Maybe the CST in his time was more humane. Very Happy

I suspect a lot of people do not know what is authorized or unauthorized during CST as spelt out in the TSR. Many who went through can shrug it off as part and parcel of the training. Hence it is unfair to assume the Rear Admiral, who was not from the army, who most probably not even been through the Navy Hell Week, who just took over the post not too long ago, to realize the violation of the TSR.

Icemoon SG

The other two are like the driving instructor beside you. See you drunk also let you drive. See got pedestrian in front also never bother to execute emergency brake below their seat. Very Happy

Gedanken SG

By exactly the same measure, it would be equally unfair to assume that Padiaraj, who just took over as OC not too long before the incident, to realize the violation of the TSR. If Pandiaraj is to be held to be negligent, so is Teo.

Teo's being from the Navy and not the Army does not stand up as an excuse. At that level, staff officers operate in an inter-service environment.

Alternatively, let's say you're right and his deprivation of an Army background is a crippling factor. In that case, he's got no business being Minister of Defence, much less any business with this case.

Teo's a show pony, and this whole sorry affair is a three-ring circus.

Icemoon SG

You neglect the point, quoting the news report by Selina Lum and David Boey:

According to the charges:

Pandiaraj, supervising officer of the Combat Survival Training Course and the Officer Commanding of the Commando Training Wing of the School of Commando, ordered the drill.

He told the instructors to hold the trainees' heads under water four times, for up to 20 seconds each time.

Alternatively, let's say you're right and his deprivation of an Army background is a crippling factor. In that case, he's got no business being Minister of Defence, much less any business with this case.

Huh, what are you trying to say?

wuming78 SG

r u saying that to be a minister of defence one has to have an army background?

Gedanken SG

That seems to be what Icemoon is implying by raising the point that Teo is from the Navy, and not the Army.

wuming78 SG

oh ok...

anyway forgive me but the sense i get from reading the posts come across to me that there seem to be some kind of vendetta with the MOD. perhaps i could have misinterpreted.

i personally dont think there is a need for him to take responsibility and step down - not cos of his background, not cos hes new.

the perpetrators will have to go down - that is straightforward. anyone higher up who would have to take some kind of responsibility would be the ones who allowed the culture to perpetuate within the formation. outside of that, i dont think there is a need or that it is fair, since there is nothing wrong with the system in itself and as a whole but the culture within a specific formation.

but if after all this hoo-haa, another similar incident occur, then the situation is different - various persons have made various promises to review the system and all. hence it would have to mean negligence or incompetence somewhere. the impact would be more widespread.

Gedanken SG

[quote]Originally posted by Icemoon:
You neglect the point, quoting the news report by Selina Lum and David Boey:

According to the charges:

Pandiaraj, supervising officer of the Combat Survival Training Course and the Officer Commanding of the Commando Training Wing of the School of Commando, ordered the drill.

He told the instructors to hold the trainees' heads under water four times, for up to 20 seconds each time.

It doesn't say anything about his instructions to "dig the noses" of the trainees or otherwise ensure that they could not hold their breath. In and of itself, the specific instruction to hold the trainee's head under water was not necessarily fatal - after all, how many combat-fit individuals can't hold their breath for 20 seconds?

So the dunking wasn't part of the original lesson plan. SOMEBODY approved it at some point, and having in the post for a short period of time, it is likely that someone besides Pandiaraj approved it. Where's that individual in this affair?

I wouldn't go putting too much faith in the news reports right now - they're not telling the whole truth. Where's the safety officer in this trial? He was not even present at the scene of the incident! Why isn't he being charged for not stopping things by virtue of his neglect? If he, of all people, is not on trial here, it raises serious questions about how this matter is being handled.

The safety officer isn't on trial, but two other men, who are at best only equally involved in the case, are. Something tells me that they've been railroaded.

Gedanken SG

No, I'm not saying that he should be charged or that he should step down. I'm saying that if you're going to charge Pandiaraj and Bala, you may as well take it all the way and charge Teo Chee Hean too. After all, if you're going to go beyond charging those who physically carried out the act, you're heading into a very gray area - where is the line to be drawn?

What's being done here is that not only are those directly responsible being charged, but we've got a couple of other men being dragged down as well, and it's being done very selectively. The hypocrisy that this selectiveness reflects is what I am objecting to.

wuming78 SG

i wont be surprised, since in all lessons the supervising and the conducting has to make sure things lessons are conducted properly according to the lesson plans.

not sure wat the role of the course commander was for that lesson.

without knowledge of the full picture its hard for us to comment and criticise. of course we can then criticise the so called transparency. but how much do we need to know?

Gedanken SG

Well, Teo Chee Hean's the one trumpeting this new age of transparency to the media. Well and good - if he is sincere, why does the public not know the following:

- why was the safety officer, given his central role in this case, not included in this case?
- why are these particular two men, who did not physically participate in the dunkings, being charged when others, who could well be involved to that same degree, are not?
- what does Mindef hope to gain from allowing four men, instead of two, to be prosecuted?

Is it because the inclusion in the charges of Pandiaraj and Bala is based on such flimsy excuses as to be an embarrassment to Mindef? Are they trying just to get the public off their backs through a the-more-charged-the-merrier approach, but not going so far as to harm anyone of any consequence to them?

Teo's got no business talking about transparency. Given how they're trying to pull a three-card trick on the public, all this talk about transparency is a mouthful.

Soldier I SG

Originally posted by wuming78:

the perpetrators will have to go down - that is straightforward. anyone higher up who would have to take some kind of responsibility would be the ones who allowed the culture to perpetuate within the formation. outside of that, i dont think there is a need or that it is fair,since there is nothing wrong with the system in itself and as a whole but the culture within a specific formation.

Just what do you mean by that? What is wrong with our culture?

Tango1 SG

Definately....take it all the way to the top. If you wanna have it transparent, then make it transparent, not transluscent.... Mr. Green

The digging of the nose part? Simple...when you hold your breath underwater, there's always air bubbles in your nostrils...when someone sticks their fingers inside, it becomes uncomfortable (I mean, who actually picks their nose underwater? ) and when that happens, you tend to release air in your lungs to get rid of this discomfort...But you end up choking on water because you run outta breath and also water is forced up your nostril. A very very uncomfortable situation.... Crying or Very sad

Those who have gone through the old, unregulated CST would know what I'm talking about...all we wanted to do, as Joshua1975 pointed out, was to simple finish the course and pray that we never have to go through that again....

lion02 SG

like what Colonel Noel Cheah had said: "I should go down with the men... this should be the way..."
but as the Minister of Defence, doesn't Mr Teo he himself has to put in some responsibilities towards this incident? with what he is currently doing, does he fit to be a leader?
for those who knows... the removal of CCO.... he's just a political scapegoat.

'This is a fair and open system, a transparent system, and I think it will give Singaporeans the assurance that we will deal with issues openly, transparently, and the law will take its course,' he said.

fair and open system??? I think he should know more than this.
the WHOLE truth will never make known to the public....

Gedanken SG

Well, lion, my list follows the chain of command. Unfortunately, while Col Cheah was man enough to stand by his men, the rest of the pencilnecks are going to run for cover like the scholar-soldier wannabes that they are.

bsor SG

i went though CST…those who went through ranger course, CST and JCC sure know staff bala(now warrant) n his cadres…without them i guess my platoon mate n me will not be as tough as now…r we lowering our level of training to the NCC level?? yeah it sad that a guy died during training but hey it the ARMY..what u expect?? accident sure happen. all i can say now is “let go 7-11 n get “SOFTEE” for the future NSF”

Viper52 SG

Hey Ged, how're things going with ya? You've been MIA here for a while eh?

Have to agree with what you've said here, unfortunately its a fact of life with most militaries. Just look at the RSS Courageous and the recent Abu Ghraib cases, the small fry get hanged while the big fish, who were culpable by the mere fact that they were negligent in supervising their subordinates, get away.

Its the hypocrisy about "transparency" and "getting to the truth" that riles me.

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