4 SAF commandos charged over death of NSman

last SG · 2004-06-09T15:54:10+00:00

no offense... i think tat tough training should not be removed from the army.. u notice recently the training is not tat tough in saf? not tat safety issues...

Gedanken SG

Moxie, Im not a lawyer either, but the wording in the page you posted seems to be pretty clear cut.

First, it says, Nothing in this Act shall affect the jurisdiction of civil courts to try a person subject to military law for any civil offence.

Well and good. Looking at the list of offences, this case can pretty much be covered under sections 25 to 28, plus section 41. Also, if what [email protected] said is true, they can also be charged under section 33. The total penalites for these offences come up to a lot more than the four years what the civil court is able to mete out.

Therefore, there seems to be no coverage by civil law that military law does not already attend to.

You call it libel, I call it an opinion! Mr. Green So far, theres been nothing to convince me that the intent behind the way this case is being handled is anything other than what Ive described.

Moxie SG

I concur with only Provision 28 & 41 as applicable for the Hu Enhuai case. Could be wrong on this, but I don't think the SAF ever superseding the civilian court in a criminally-caused death either (too young to remember the pre-1980s). The Tekong recruit who broke down & shot his PC in the last decade - can anyone recall his trial?

IMHO The other military Provisions are more applicable for the near-drowning(s) - inc. victims unnamed in the present charges - & for the rogue behavior per se. I don't think they'll "stick" with the Hu Enhuai incident; these proposed charges are simply not direct enough as far as serving justice for him goes.

Gedanken SG

Well 26 would be superceded by 28 in nthis case, but the violation of TSR could be covered by 25, while they're obviously hitting Balakrishnan with 27 anyway.

Like I said, it's all covered by military law - why make it a civil case?

Fr0sty SG

easy said then done.... to train a bunch of tough fighters you think so easy meh? .... have to consider this have to consider dat ....

outcome = bunch of Gu Niangs ....

it is'nt an anomaly that people die in Special Forces training around the world, but to make head lines out of it is Embarassed ....

SAF should really screen trainees properly b4 sending them for gruelling trainings at Hendon ... if want to ask for "accountability " who is the bugger in-charge of screenin? ... in any case ppl may still die .... becos why? normal ppl think cannot, commando think can ... so how to solve? Rolling Eyes if justifiable a commando will jump from the 100th storey with or without his parachute...just give him the right reason Wink Amen .... optionally we can start to train commandos with the "cannot do" attitude rather then the "can do" attitude...

for those who know Pandiaraj will know that he is a natural leader ... a man of honour ... if not then how to become SOH holder? It is unfortunate that a good man like himself got involved in all these politics.... wah just like the showz Gladiator ... Shocked ... Mi HERO Razz

I myself having gone through 7 log pts would also like to ask for accountabilty ... who was the champion that approved log PTs which was later scrapped by SAF ? ... fookin EL ! me back hurts ... slip disc liao ... maybe I will make head lines ...

Maybe Airborne should be banned also ... Airborne damn dangerous ... If not why VIPs wear additional ankle guards for all their jumps? ... or is the govenrment implying that it is not alrite to die but it is alrite to go home "safely" as a "broken" man? (here broken there broken) frankly speaking some of us rather die then to be "here broken there broken" Wink

If every body wants to whine like a gu niang I also want my share if not how to be a singaporean? Rolling Eyes

reallyy ...... if i put myself in Sgt Hu's shoes I would like to be remembered as some one who has died training to fight for his country ...

psykror7 SG

1st ting first... what Mr Teo said to cover up everyone's a*s really made me lose confidence in him, and that it's all publicity to show everyone things will be a-ok again... by what? spraying water as interrogation simulation?

I know (though not personally) most of those named in the incident, and those who know them long enuf knows they're not bad characters (not that they're bad at all).... one simply have to look at how ranger courses was ran to know why... there are some much worse. It's simply that some trainings that are to be carried out with caution (unmentioned in training guidelines), had become so common as to be thought normal, and some practices (as Heng pointed out) were undoubtly wrong, but were also thought common enough to be thought okay. That's when things can go very wrong, as happened in Sgt Hu's death. And the named will go down with it. Noel Cheah had led the way ahead for them. They'll not be self-respecting commandos if they don't admit they're wrong and are sorry. And those of whom i know are men of honour. Sh*t happens, and they should willingly - and with remorse - go down for wrongly causing another's death.

Where do we go from now for the Cdos?

NathanG5 SG

wat a bull crap.. Laughing
a man of honor?
wats so honorable abt the whole incident?
seriously..this is the most crappiest crap ive ever read..

if i were in Sgt Hu's shoes..i rather die fighting..not die training..
but im not Sgt Hu's...so who are u to decide for Sgt Hu?

Gedanken SG

Nathan, I've never served under Noel Cheah, so I can't fairly speak for him. However, to give you some idea of the kind of bovine excrement that is taking place here, this is the kind of guy that Mindef is happily hanging out to dry:

http://www.ippt.mindef.gov.sg/display.asp?number=424

http://mindef.miw.com.sg/display.asp?number=1276

So the SAF sees fit to put a guy in charge of a peacekeeping force, then turns around and paints him to the public as a brutal instructor? Shocked

Come on, Mindef, pull the other leg - it's got bells on.

NathanG5 SG

Originally posted by Gedanken:
Nathan, I've never served under Noel Cheah, so I can't fairly speak for him. However, to give you some idea of the kind of bovine excrement that is taking place here, this is the kind of guy that Mindef is happily hanging out to dry:

http://www.ippt.mindef.gov.sg/display.asp?number=424

http://mindef.miw.com.sg/display.asp?number=1276

So the SAF sees fit to put a guy in charge of a [b]peacekeeping force, then turns around and paints him to the public as a brutal instructor? Shocked

Come on, Mindef, pull the other leg - it's got bells on.[/b]

sori Ged..im not sure wat u are toking abt...but im not toking abt Noel Cheah..n if u refer to the old thread regarding this..i think the ex CCO a scape goat too..

for those who know Pandiaraj will know that he is a natural leader ... a man of honour ... if not then how to become SOH holder? It is unfortunate that a good man like himself got involved in all these politics.... wah just like the showz Gladiator ... ... Mi HERO

im refering to this guy Fr0sty mention..but wat izit gotta do with Noel Cheah?
n at 1st i tot the link was abt Noel Cheah..
n the link doesnt mention much too..one state that he is a Sword Of Honor reciever..
another link mention he is a PC of a Peacekeeper force..

but does it justify the death?

are we trying prove that no one is at fault here?

just because someone was in the peacekeeper corp once...does it prove anything that he was not involve with death of Sgt Hu?

Kaczynski SG

Guess there's a bit of mis-comm here...

Ged was refering to Pandiaraj when he quoted the 2 articles the 1st being he was the SOH awardee, the 2nd being he involved in the EAst Timor Peacekeeper Ops...

Help it helps

NathanG5 SG

thank u Kaczynski...i spot the mistake after going to the links.. Very Happy

Gedanken SG

Think about this for a minute, Nathan. If you're sending an officer out to run a peacekeeping unit, would you pick someone who would have the good judgement to keep things running smoothly without people getting killed?

And now, after they've not only selected him for that post, but after he's very successfully completed that tour, they're saying that he instigated the incident that led to Sgt Hu's death?

Come on, Nathan - you've got to admit that something doesn't add up here.

NathanG5 SG

34-year-old Captain Pandiaraj Mayandi was accused of abetting in Hu's death by instigating the trainers, while 45-year-old Warrant Officer Balakrishnan was charged with failing to stop them.

who is the one accusing Captain Pandiaraj?
Mindef or the victim?

how did the police come up with this accuse of abetting in Sgt Hu's death?

if it come directly from Mindef mouth then we have something to doubt with,,

but wat if it come out of the suriviving victim mouth?

Tweeker SG

Hello guys,

I have been reading passively most threads about the CDO incident ever since it happened.

I thought I like to highlight some points about LTA Pandiaraj. We happened to be in the same coy during BMT, BCT & SLC. I have seen many guys/buddies who become SCs and "Ociffers", and started to turn sadists when they are re-appointed as appointment holders as Section commanders and PCs. But I never seen Pandiaraj part of this kind of nonsense game. He was highly regarded as a gentleman that would pushed the men to the limits thru complete understanding of their mission requirements. He is ONE of the new generation CDO commanders that would not use excessive abuses and "happy hours" to achieve their aims.

A man died. The involved faced the music, we shut the "gap" up. Period. Whatever things that have been written here is not going to make it any better.

Tweeker

NathanG5 SG

Ged i did have doubt when i read the paper abt this incident last week mentioning all the accuse..

read my above post...

im bad at relating it in english..but hope u can understand wat im toking abt..

i might be wrong abt Capt Pandiaraj..
but im not wrong abt Frosty post..

read his post..izit acceptable?
he hinted openly that no one at fault...

even though he only mention Pandiaraj name n hail him as a hero..
does a single man good name means the others are innocent?

Gedanken SG

Hey Tweeker, welcome to the forum! I think we may know each other - PM me!

Anyway, I know Pandiaraj as well, and I wholeheartedly agree. He's definitely not the sadist sort - why else would he have been chosen to lead the peacekeeping force?

It may be the case that everything we write here is inconsequential. However, being new to the forum, you may not know that it is because of this exact forum that the case has blown out into its current proportions. One of the forumers is a friend of the late Sgt Hu, and he posted a thread about Hu's death. The Straits Times picked up on the story, and the rest is history.

Even discounting that bit of trivia, being a forum, this is a place where we can share our opinions about issues such as this and hopefully develop a better understanding of such issues. God knows we're not allowed to stand on a soap box and do it in these parts.

Gedanken SG

Yeah, I think I can see what you mean and, no, I don't think that no one is at fault. However, in this case, they're going after people whom I don't think are at fault here.

psykror7 SG

this is what i get out of Fr0sty post on his intention.

[quote]Originally posted by Fr0sty:

If every body wants to whine like a gu niang I also want my share if not how to be a singaporean? Rolling Eyes

i guess it's easy to see what's wrong here Confused

agree with tweeker that we should move on from laying the blame. wat's done is done, no point making it worse... hopefully cdos in charge now can set things right, without compromising their training rigour.

Mr Teo's publicity stunt should be the subject of a different topic. Smile

Gedanken SG

I'll have to disagree with that, psykor. The case is pending, so it's not done yet. Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded here, and the way I see it, the righteous outcome for the two of them is not so much an acquittal but a dismissal of the case.

psykror7 SG

Pandiaraj was my SR Pl ex-PC, and my seniors had undying support of his character as their leader. Unlike the PC who took over him which basically is just like Mr Teo - ironclad a*s.

Gedanken SG

Errr, what's SR Pl? Confused

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