New Chinese Jets Superior, Eagle Loses to Flanker

SpecOps87 SG

Well,since SU-30 is claimed to be so good....what if we have a few tricks up our sleeves?If we had EMP technology,we could ground all our aircraft,military equipment and using SF,plant an remote-detonated EMP device near their air-bases and on command set them off simultaneouly.They will never know what hit them.And imagine the shock on the RMAF's faces when they see a perfectly good SU-30 takeoff and sudddenly,just lose power and slam onto the concrete runway?Ok,that is alittle off from the aircombat thingy.

Anyway,you think RSAF so stupid mehz?Leave the E2C Hawkeye to fly AWACS up there alone ah?In peacetime got 2-4 F-16s protecting it.In war,I belief mebbe up to 10 covering one.And we must not forget the fact that we have hidden assets as well.F-15 being a large aircraft will definitely be easier to spot on radar due to its larger cross-section.Besides,its a bona fide fact that F-15 is out for so long,it may be considered obselete.But one fact is that F-15s have a special throttle capability to increase the rating of the turbo jets to 15% more then the standard output,and thus is able to out-run the missile.

Btw,just to clarify,AIM-120 is longest range mehz?I thought is AIM-54 Phoneix?

ferret69 SG

It is standard operational doctrine to ALWAYS have an escort of at least 2 fighters for High Value Assets (AWACs, tankers). I never made an assertion that the E2Cs were unescorted. My main interest in this scenario has always been this, can the RSAF negate the long range track and engagement parameters of the Su-30s such that the AWACs will not be taken out in a surprise engagement?

On a sidenote,as for EMPs, since we're talking about such exotic technology, F-16s are very much more vulnerable since the computer "flies" it. Take out the computers, you take out the plane. (Unless there's a new EMP hardened Block-XX F-16s I don't know about). Are the Su-30s exclusively fly-by-wire too?

And yes, I too thought (and still think) the Phoenix is the longest range AAM in operation right now. Unfortunately, the Phoenix is limited to the F-14 & its radar systems. It's truly a remarkable weapon with extreme engagement envelopes. Truly far ahead of its time when it was first introduced. Any new systems which are comparable?

zenden9 SG

Su-30K/MK/MKI image with Indonesia Air Force

storywolf SG

You just lost your whole airforce !

Hawkeye will see you coming, they have their missile defense, they also have fighter escorts. Next they are within the air defense coverage our Ground-to-air and Sea-to-Air.

Next even if you knock out 1 hawkeye and some radars, what about our other hawkeyes, backup radars and mobile radars !

Your planes is limping back low on fuel and out of ammo, with RSAF after them. You have committed your planes and pilots, and they are tired out. They land, they become sitting duck, and get hit when refuelling. Stay in the air, and you don't have the fuel or ammo to fight it out, also you will find you lost your landing runways. Great you just lost your whole airforce !

Sure sound like another Midway ! haha !

storywolf SG

Bravo plan ! Just lost your whole airforce for a hawkeye and a few radars. Great exchange plan !

The Hawkeye will see your su30s when they are on the runway. By the way hawkeye have their own missile defences, also fighters cover. They will also be inside Singapore Air defense( ground to air)and navy (sea to air) coverage. Also you got only one hawkeye only, what about the other 3 ?

So let assume your F18s hit a few radars. Well by then you lost a few planes, and your almost whole airfore limping back ! RSAF will by then will launch another hawkeye, mobile and backup radars will be up. Strike flights is just right behind your limping airforces tail. Those who land to try to re-arm and re-fuel will all be sitting duck and hit by the incoming strike as the bases is bombed. The one who are in the air, are low on ammo and fuels, also by then no runway to land. Think you just lost the whole airforce.

Read up on the Midway ! Think you just repeated history like the japanese did !

|-|05| SG

the AIM-54 is too big and heavy that's why not many other planes carry it....infact the only other plane i've ever seen carry it is the F111 during trials.Anyway the time of the Aim54 is over...but it's range is still the longest......150km or there abouts

Langley SG

I think the edge of RSAF would be in ECM. This sorta stuff not easily avalible off the shelf and usually have to develop locally. So in SEAD I think Singapore confirm win liao. With our adversary's radars down, our new strike fighters, orchestrated by E-2Cs within Singapore territory, will win the day. But then, many countries now developing hardened aircraft shelters, Malaysia and Singapore included. So we may have to destroy our opponent's airforce in the air rather than on the ground. Unless we buy bunker-buster bombs from the US. Or do we have them already? Confused

ferret69 SG

That sounds like what I believe too. RSAF would have an edge in ECM which hopefully will defeat any long-range AAMs. RMAF advantage with Su-30s would be long loiter time, mini-AWACS capability, and long range "reach out and touch someone" AAMs. Without good ECM on RSAF's part, I do believe the SU-30s have the DISTINCT advantage over any of our current fighters; even AWACS is not the all-powerful silver bullet. What use is an eye in the sky if your sheriff and deputies have a 6-round revolver when the other cowboys have Springfield rifles?

Have there been any studies done for Su-30s vs F-16s/F-18s/Rafale/Typhoon?

ECM itself is a black art of measure, countermeasure, counter-countermeasure. A small anecdote here; Lockheed Skunkwork's Ben Richards believed that the ECM package carried by the Taiwanese U-2s contributed to them being shot down by China's SA-2s. Instead of deflecting or spoofing the SA-2s, instead it seemed to attract the SA-2s like a beacon. One Taiwanese U-2 pilot seemed to survive because.....he forgot to switch his ECM on.

Not sure if we have bunker-busters. Can shaped warheads with guidance via laser or GPS of our own design defeat these HAS? What about those hangars built underground? I remember reading an air force having those (Israeli?).

ferret69 SG

Repeated history like the Japs did in Midway? I seem to be reading the wrong history books then. I always thought that was a failure in Jap signals cryptography. The USN were more or less lying in wait for the Jap carrier fleet, and even then the USN had lots of good luck coming it's way

1) The high patrolling Zeros were made to drop down from height to attack the torpedo bombers leaving the divebombers enough time to drop their eggs on the Jap flattops.

2) Caught the Japs flat-footed on deck changing the ordinance.

In the end, US industrial capacity would have won the war anyway. Midway hastened the defeat a further 6-12 months.

The question remains of course, how susceptible are we to a Pearl Harbor style (surprise) strike? I would say very much so. It's coming up with the scenarios is where the fun is Wink

storywolf SG

Ferret69, it is not too different.

1) The high patrolling Zeros were made to drop down from height to attack the torpedo bombers leaving the divebombers enough time to drop their eggs on the Jap flattops.
Well for your case, you use up almost all your SU30s and F18s on strike configuration, with some of them already shot down, by air defense coverage and they are limping back while the RSAF strike force is behind them. Sound like the same, your planes are not in any position to defend.

2) Caught the Japs flat-footed on deck changing the ordinance.
Your SU30s and F18s are so low on fuel and ammo, so they will have to land to refuel and re-arm. Are they not flat-footed like the jap when the RSAF strike force hit ? Those that are still in the air will not have the fuel or ammo to fight, also will not have any airfield left.

As we are alway aware of the lack of depth, therefore we are alway plan for us being hit first. But RSAF is build around the fact, even if you get your 1st strike, we still have enough assets to get back at you, and that response is something much more than given to us.

ferret69 SG

Of course I won't commit all my forces at one go but also it is time to adjust mission parameters. Now I'll just stay in my own airspace and the first attack is meant to just take down AWACS (4 SU-30 shooters + 4 escorts), I still have 10 more Su-30s for a rotational deployment as mini-AWACs + long loiter BARCAP with F-18s supporting. Screw the anti-radar missions, unless I've obtained ALARM or HARM missiles or the Russian equivalent.

I'll still have ASTROS do the runway denial missions (hmm, gotta buy a few packs of cigarettes for my Army counterparts and hope they'll go along with the plan)

With all the shooting I'm doing, think I'll run out of weapons in less than a week. Maybe even in less than 2 days. Afterwhich I'll declare myself insane and apologise on RTM for the mischief that I've done, shave my head, move to Trengganu and lead a very docile kampung-by-the-beach life (was always partial to Pulau Perhentian, beautiful place)

|-|05| SG

WTH?
taiwan U-2's?
since when??

10 more SU-30's?nay....you'd have 8 at best....since 1 or 2 will most likely be serviced and thus non operational.

With all the shooting I'm doing, think I'll run out of weapons in less than a week. Maybe even in less than 2 days. Afterwhich I'll declare myself insane and apologise on RTM for the mischief that I've done, shave my head, move to Trengganu and lead a very docile kampung-by-the-beach life (was always partial to Pulau Perhentian, beautiful place)

PAS will pay for all your expenses no doubt...for waging war againest the infidels

Fairyland SG

Half the bloody RSAF is in Las Vegas casinos.........the other half is all over the world..........

The Su 30s would have to fly all the way there to win the war!

If it's a surprise the Hawkeyes won't be in the air anyway??? then it depends on how thick the concrete is......

It's a non-starter from any angle you look at.

cavsg SG

nationalist were flying U-2's over the mainland in the 60s more than 5 were shot down

Viper52 SG

Here's more info on RoCAF U-2s. 6 were lost operationally, of which 5 were shot down

http://www.taiwanairpower.org/u2.html

Viper52 SG

Hmmm...add 50% to 70km and it becomes 105km. I think those speculating 150km range are too optimistic.

The AMRAAM's main drawback is however not addressed in the AIM-120D. The fins are still too small, thus missile agility suffers. AMRAAMs contemporaries are all much more agile than it, using various methods. Range is nothing if your target still manages to dodge.

|-|05| SG

USAF planes attached to the taiwan airforce aint it?

|-|05| SG

the fins were reduced so that it cld be use on the F/A-22 mah.....wad to do?

Viper52 SG

Yup. USAF planes, Taiwanese pilots for "plausible deniability". There are wrecks of U-2s displayed at military museums in the PRC

the fins were reduced so that it cld be use on the F/A-22 mah.....wad to do?

I know that, and unless a larger fin is designed for a larger weapons bay. Meanwhile, the aerodynamics of foriegn BVR AAMs are stealing a march on the AMRAAM.

|-|05| SG

err.....that british BVR missile....meteor was it? has pretty small fins too......and WTH are u doing awake so late man?!

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