Singapore bashing

dragonstar SG

It is indeed sad to see that in some threads, some apparently undeserved Singaporean takes pleasure in Singapore bashing.

In the thread about the treatment of the family of the lost crew in the marine accident, there are comments like "That's Singapore" and "Welcome to Singapore", when law was not changed or disregarded to expedite the issuance of a death certificate. Have those who criticised ever had been at the receiving end of a legal system that is "flexible" enough to be changed by a single person to suit his needs? I have when I worked in a third world country and was involved in a minor vehicular accident (only the bumper was dented). I was put into the jail (albeit for a short time) like a common criminal. When the case came to court, the judge decided that since I was an expatriate, and therefore must be rich (I assure everyone that I am not), to fine me many times a local under the same situation would. Once a person had been in a similar situation that I had, he would appreciate stringent compliance and enforcement of the law, even though it can be a pain at times. At least, all will be treated equally.

In another thread, there were some immatured and unjustified grouses about having to do NS. In the same third world country, I was at the wrong end of a shotgun, a pistol and a machette. In the area that I lived in, riots occurred EVERY NIGHT and my compound was used as a short cut by the rioters. The police were corrupt and ineffective and could/would not do anything about the law and order situation. I had a parang in every room, even though it would not have been of much use - but at least, I had undergone military training - toughening. In Singapore we have NS to provide a stable environment where we don;t have to fear for our lifes every day.

For those who cannot stand the peace and stability that we have, I urge you to give up your Singapore citizenship and migrate to a third world country that is lawless so that you can enjoy the exciting life that you are bound to have there.

snk86 SG

well, true........in singapore, things are much safer....i assume you live in Indonasia right? every parang in a room is not safe enuf.....learn what my mom's fren did

*3gurka's arm with Uzi on 24hour duty
*2 fully load shotgun on the living room put on a sumurai sword rack
pistols(loaded) in every room and corner

and

a spray system used to spray weedkiller filled with sulparic acid on the front door......

of course.....that guy is bloody rich......

wuming78 SG

its hard for ppl to appreciate the circumstances they are in if they have been in such a circumstance for all their lives.

hence the older generation would have experienced firsthand the kind of quantum leap improvement in the stds of living and quality of life since our independence, while the younger generation have only experienced comfort since they are born.

as such its folly to ask them to compare what we have with other less fortunate countries. it jus the same as asking a kid from a middle income family to appreciate how lucky he is compared to a kid from a low income one. without first hand experience its hard to relate.

i guess its ok to complain - if its constructive, if its the on and off kind of getting things off our chests. however if its persistent and vehement outbursts, i think its better for the complainant to examine whether or not there are better and more meaningful ways. lower ur expectations? get ur message across to those who matter? leave? these are options we all have and we all get to choose between.

wuming78 SG

?

what i was saying was we all have several options. leaving is one of them. and we have to make the decision amongst these choices.

dragonstar SG

I do not dispute that Singapore could be better, but then what can a normal person think of that is perfect? From your reply, you apparently care for Singapore, good for you.

You seem to like analogies: "like children disowning their parents" and "is as bad as a father telling his daughter, 'you can be a lawyer, a doctor or prostitute when you grow up'".

Analogies are just like statistics, it is often used to present from one perspective. I used to teach statistics and problem solving techniques and thus these two "tools" are particularly familiar to me. I will use an analogy to show my perspective.

"A traitor is like a cancer and should be gotten rid of, for otherwise it may spread and cause the person with the cancer to die".

Another statement that I noticed was "they [sic] are parents who are so horrible". Maybe I can restate it as "there are children who are so horrible". I used to teach analytical and design skills too, so I look at practically everything in depth.

By the way, this post is not meant to be critical of you.

dragonstar SG

I agree. But when someone starts hurling indiscriminate vulgarities like a mad dog (in the NS sucks post) ...

I agree too. An often used and tired cliche that comes to mind is "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". If everyone works towards that end, then things will move. What I have put forward is idealistic. Although I am to a large extent an idealist, I am even more of a realist and knows that that will never happen.

What is important in the issue is that we must have realistic expectations.

Xprobe SG

Encik, relax la...they are not airing it on SBC. This is not mainstream media channel...let it be la...why so authoritative? Kaobei also cannot? You in your 60s?

dragonstar SG

Your friends are unlikely to be below the poverty line; below their expectations maybe?

Anyway, I personally know a labourer from India who is returning home to get married. Even as a labourer, he earns more than he would at home. I knew Indonesian, Sri Lankan and Indian maids who earns more than at their countries (one was even a teacher).

Why did/do they go home? Well, one said she could start up a small business with the money earned here. Do they want to come back? Well, at least half of them indicated so.

Why did they not stay? Because they can't, with immigration and manpower laws.

I myself had considered seeking employment overseas. If I do, I will still return as Singapore is Home.

Gedanken SG

dragonstar, as much as I agree with your sentiments regarding the NS thread, your suggestion above is entirely contrary to the idea of democracy that Singapore claims to be. As I said in the NS thread, the basis of democracy is encapsulated in Voltaire's statement: "I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

The unfortunate paradox of the situation is that it is precisely the peace and stability that you speak of that allows some forumites the luxury to post the sentiments that you presently object to.

Nice to meet a fellow statistician, by the way! Very Happy

wuming78 SG

mabbe i get wat u mean.

to u the country is probably more impt than the self. trust me tt is wat i feel too.

but tt is not wat everyone feels. and this is a reality.

everyone has options they can exercise. tt is the crux of my statement. but i do not encourage ppl leaving their countries at their wimp and fancy.

wat i was driving at was tt, there r many ppl who think and act as though they haf no choice in their lives - tt they r stuck in their current situations and can do nothing more than complain and criticise. i urge them to think of the choices they haf, and exercise them. tt, in the long run, is better off for everyone.

LazerLordz SG

Dude, have you ever heard of freedom of speech?Just because you dislike their point of view does not mean they are obliged to meet your inane wishes.So what if people do not like this place?Are you going to be a tantrum-throwing person and bawl, insisting that they are ingrates and they should leave this place?No doubt, there may be ungrateful people around who we sweat useless blood and tears for, but the hallmark of civility is the fact that we will defend their right to spout their words.

God help us if you become a minister.Such intolerance has no place in today's world, I'm contributing my little bit to make it so.

CenturionMBT SG

And you think you are doing any better by putting him down because he disagree with your views? Relac lah brother, people have their own point of view also lah. He disagree with your ideas and voice it out does not mean that he is trying to supress others, so dun be too overly critical lah. Anyway, i dun think this topic belongs to the military nuts forum. But i i will l leave this thread on for 48hrs before closing it. So please voice your opposition against this decision during this grace period. Thx. You may proceed to speakers corner to continue your discussion.

Viper52 SG

I agree with your stand on NS. But I have to disagree your opinion with the other issue

Conversely, have you ever thought about how the family of 2SG Chua feels? Or been at the receiving end of a system that is too inflexible to consider the merits of each case, knowing that every case is unique and may have its own merits?

The reason for the uneven application of the law in the 3rd world country you have experienced is a result of Greed fueled by corruption. Not due to leeway to apply the law with flexibility. It's an atrocious example to make your point, IMO

I do feel lucky that I live in Singapore and not countries like Indonesia, Bangladesh or Cambodia. And I'm grateful for the fact that our policies have brought us up to where we are. But at the same time, I feel that these policies are exactly the ones that are hamstringing Singapore's aspirations to move up to the next level of development. This "no u-turn" mindset, this "we know better" mentality, this "Good grades= good person" idea. And thats just the beginning.

Your appreciation for the "stability" in Singapore is borne out of your experiences in poorer countries. That is perfectly clear and underandable. But at the same time, I urge to to understand that those who are calling for change have their ideas borne out of their own experiences living in countries that have gone to the next level of development.

As for your encouragement for unhappy Singaporeans to leave. I would seriously urge you to reconsider it. Do you think this brain drain is what Singapore needs? Those leaving are undoubtedly well off, well educated, have an ability to think beyond what they are spoonfed and dare to take risks. As Gedanken once said to me, these people are exactly what Singapore needs to move on and develop further. Not to mention these are Singaporeans and will have Singaporean kids. Sure we can make up those numbers with the "Cheap Foreign Labour" the government likes to mis-label as "Foriegn Talent". But if you think these people are here for the duration, you've got another think coming.

And yes, this topic is not relevant to the forum. You're welcome to restart it on Speakers Forum. In fact, theres already one like it there.

The pros and cons of emigration

Viper52 SG

I don't think thats entirely true. While I've met people who think the grass is greener on the other side based on hearsay and what they see on TV, an increasing number of Singaporeans are feeling disenchantment because they have personally lived their lives overseas. And even though its not all fun and games elsewhere, they can see that having less government control, true ballot box democracy, having a robust oppostion, a free press, a welfare state (of sorts) and a flexible bureaucracy will not tear a country apart like how the gah'ment keeps claiming those actions I listed above will do to Singapore.

I used to buy the government's line unquestioningly (see my very earliest posts on Speakers Corner) until I got the opportunity to live in Australia, see their system 1st hand and interact with Australians for 4 years. Talk about taking the Red Pill...

NathanG5 SG

agree...tat is y i dun bother even reply to this post last nite..
1st thing come into my mind when i read this post at 3am...who give the fuk abt wat he says..im still gona do what im suppose to do..
n go back slp..

dragonstar SG

Poor me is misunderstood. My suggestion is supported by democracy - I am suggesting that the the free choice of getting out is exercised.

Academician, my dear boy, albeit ex-academician. Gave up my lecturing job to concentrate on post-grad degree.

dragonstar SG

Yes I have heard of free speech - and I am glad that ours is not yet similar to that of America's. Here, most of us still feel strongly about accountability off what we say.

I am not forcing anyone to agree to my point of view. I am just exercising my right of free speech - heard of it? Oh yeah, you must have because you brouht it up.

As my postings indicate, I am a rational person and have not thrown tantrums. Those in the "NS sucks" thread were the ones.

Gedanken SG

Originally posted by dragonstar:
Poor me is misunderstood. My suggestion is supported by democracy - I am suggesting that the the free choice of getting out is exercised.

Removal of oneself from a society is one aspect of democracy that could lend itself to abuses, dragonstar, if one does not apply extreme caution. While I know what you mean, having exercised that choice myself, Stalin could have claimed that all good Russians were given the choice to go to Siberia, and that they declined that choice by keeping their mouths shut. Besides, it is a part of democracy that one may choose to stay within that society and whinge about it.

Originally posted by dragonstar:
Academician, my dear boy, albeit ex-academician. Gave up my lecturing job to concentrate on post-grad degree.

Aren't we all. Mr. Green What's your postgrad in, BTW? Mine was in psych.

want to know SG

Ha Ha Ha Laughing Exagerating! I have been to Indonesia before many times. In fact i have relatives in Indonesia. I have never in my life encounter that kind of security before. Indonesia is not safe neither is it that dangerous! Just be careful should be enough!

snk86 SG

errm, the fact is that i bin to his house before, found bullet holes on his wall facing the street, and he said the shotguns has been reloaded more then thrice....the pistols he haven(luckily) got a chance to use yet......his guards have all fired shots before.......and yes, he got shot before, that was in the turmoil years when suharto was kicked down.........still he choose to stay in indonesia, because he says theres where the moneys are.........took me a long time to understand this statement........