Actually you are not totally right especially not against
SG.
The reason is that SG is so densely populated that almost all
military installations are within a few hundred meters & below
from any civilians installation, as the matter of fact ,we even
have commercials airport within a military camp!
For example , if Astros 2 is to target CNB, could it guarantee that
it will not hit a commercial airliner causing hundred of deaths of
foreigner in Changi Int'l Airport!!!
There are alway foriegn military a/c & ships in SG, what if
they hit one of them. For example a US aircraft carrier, they might
even strike back with their F/A-18s!!!!!
Since Astros 2 is unguided rocket system , the best CEP for this
kind of system is 1%, it might be even worst. The Indian's Pinaka
is 2-3%, the Chinese's WS-1B is 1-1.5%, therefore at the range of
89km, it could have a error deviation of at least 890m!!!!!
Therefore a good CEP is critical against SG.
The political implication & maybe even military implication if
US also get involved will be great, MY will be foolish to try a
pre-emptive strike against SG using the Astros 2 rockets.
CHARGE!!!
2nd MAF ASTROS II MLRS regiment are operational!!!!!
According to the link, this Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL)
program should be completed by 2007. Since we are a good friend of
Israel and US ships frequently use SG facilities, we might get a
battery or so from them after completion, afterall it is to their
interest to have it to protect CNB. 
The THEL laser during firing.
The laser shot down a target.
CHARGE!!!
Originally posted by gary1910:
According to the link, this Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL)
program should be completed by 2007. Since we are a good friend of
Israel and US ships frequently use SG facilities, we might get a
battery or so from them after completion, afterall it is to their
interest to have it to protect CNB.
The THEL laser during firing.
The laser shot down a target.
[b]CHARGE!!!
[/b]
If finished, can let me try on few buggers I really dislike, I mean can i zap them into oblivion.......
No, we will NOT get any THEL from them. I doubt the US is
willing to export DEW technology to other NATO countries, least of
all Singapore. Quit your wet dreams guys. 
(sigh, I wish we have one of those too, heh heh)
And oh please, no more of those "shooting down of rockets with our
Barak" thingie. I do not know if it is possible, (and I wont get
into a pointless debate on this) but doing something like that
would be stupid. We would deplete our stores of Barak like nobody's
business. I have something interesting to share though. It seems
that the US Army is fretting too about the arty barrages it would
face in future, and they are thinking of a "shield" based on a gun
system which fires 'smart' rounds to intercept rockets (or other
munitions) coming their way. IIRC, the objective is to intercept
each target with two rounds. They might be more willing to sell
such a system. 
And oh yes, are you guys sure they have procured an anti-runway
submunition payload version of their rocket? (to be truthful, I;m
not sure if there even is one, but I think I read somewhere that
there is) Because I dont believe ICMs are very useful against
structures at all. Even if launched against our runways, they would
cause only minor damage and would be easily repaired. I hope this
puts to rest some of our (un-needed) fears of this weapons
system.
You mean someting like CIWS, like Phalax ,Goalkeeper.
I think our 35mm AA might actually hit a few rockets if they are
fired in a salvo. Maybe even our 30mm Typhoon RWS could also
utilise for that.
As for whether Astros 2has any anti-runway round , the answer is
yes.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/astros/index.html
Cluster munitions warheads and dual purpose anti-armour and anti-personnel bomblets for increased area saturation are available for the SS-40, SS-60 and SS-80 rockets. A high explosive white phosphorous incendiary warhead provides anti-personnel, smoke deployment and materiel incendiary capability. A mine deployment warhead carries anti-personnel and anti-materiel mines. An anti-runway warhead which is equipped with a delayed action fuse has the capability of penetrating reinforced concrete runways to a depth of nearly 0.5m.
Dun to worry abt the Astros 2 , if they are so devastating as
someone has described, I am sure by then the US/Israeli will
provide us the THEL system, afterall it is a joint project between
US & Israeli, not US alone.
CHARGE!!!
Exactly, Singapore still has a defence budget 4 times that of
Malaysia, we ain't exactly gonna sit around doing nothing.
That's why this ASTROS II incident is more of a matter of
propangada feel-good rethoric then an actual edge for the MAF,
since they know that Singapore can easily go tit-for-tat, and
counter them at every move, and do much more.
ASTROS II is a good leveler for them, for while they can't match us
for quality or quantity, if worse come to worse, they can at least
have a capacity to hurt Singapore in any way they can short of
employing MAF sucide bombers. The problem that remains for them is
how to catch up with the gap in their military and ours, using a
budget that is 4 times less. No matter what they do, there's really
little they can do to really catch up, not unless we screw up very
badly on our part.
While it's easy to match capacity because the MAF knows what to
buy, we have to be a lot more careful with our cash because we have
to stay ahead of the game, so while they can just blindly follow us
and try to match up in equipment, we have to crack our heads and
really carefully consider how to get the most bang for our buck. If
you look at our recent advanced technology projects, you'll realize
that we are not trying to be unreal, but rather get a big headstart
on technologies that will prove to be very important in the future
war.
Uhh, no. Each projectile will actually be radar guided to their
target by a radar tracker, if i remember correctly. Also, what do
you think the dispense altitude for the rockets are? Should any
intercept against a rocket be attempted, that would be a
consideration. (but its just a theoretical thought. I guess you'll
agree with me 
)
Uhh, no. Each projectile will actually be radar guided to their
target by a radar tracker, if i remember correctly. Also, what do
you think the dispense altitude for the rockets are? Should any
intercept against a rocket be attempted, that would be a
consideration. (but its just a theoretical thought. I guess you'll
agree with me )
I realise I have a made a mistake, you are actually talking abt
anti-rocket projectile!! Sorry
One thing I wanted to ask, anyone here know the term
consistency of fire Bo/X = 1/100 - 1/150 , it seem
that the lower , the better it is. It this same thing as the Dud
probability?
CHARGE!!!
Do we have anything close to a rocket/missile launchers in our
artillery? 
facts or fats??
You keep bringing this CEP and doubting the Astros accuracy...to
put things in perspective, let me paint a simple scenario...(i have
provided this info in a previous thread on Astros). I hope i don't
scare you with it.
1 Astros launcher - 4 SS80 rockets.
Each rockets can provide area saturation with anti-personnel,
anti-amour submunition to 1 sqkm.
where u got the
info that each rocket can provide area saturation for an area of 1
sqkm???
according to this
website... http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/submunitions.pdf
it takes
about 7,728 submunition to cover an area of approx. 240,000 square
METERs (not kilometers ok?) using the US MRLS system as example...
but each Astros2
rocket only carry 64 submunition leh..... according to the same
website..... 7728 divide by 64 gives 120 SS-60/80 rockets
leh!!
how many rockets
can one launcher carry again??
and how
many rockets do you need to fire to cover 1 kmsq?? i estimated ....
120*5 ... around 600 astros2 rocket!!
how long will it
take for MAF to launch 600 rocket?
and if MAF wanna
cover singapore with rocket... how many rocket would that take....
lets see... 600*624 gives 374,400 rockets!!! wow... MAF must be
damn freaking rich!!
1 regt with 18 lauchers - 72 rockets
2 regt with 36 launchers - 144 rockets in one salvo.
ahhh.... 144 rocket
per salvo... 374,400 rocket would take.... 2,600 salvos!!! wow....
i wonder the launcher can tahan or not... sekali after 2 salvo...
break down liow...
From the first launch, 144sqkm will be saturated with blasts from
submunitions.
correct figure
should be 240,000sqmeter divide by 7,728 multiply by 144*64
(submunition carried in each A-2)... gives a total area
of....286,211 sqmeter... convert to sq kilometer gives... 0.286
sqkm...
Therefore, to blanket an area of 640sqkm, it will require 5
salvoes.
therefore to
blanket an area of 640km would require 640/0.286 gives.... 2238
salvos...
Time from launch to a target 89km away - 2 min
Reload time - 6 min
Time taken for 5 salvoes - 34min.
assuming it takes 34
min to launch 5 salvos... the time needed to launch 2238 salvos
would be 2238/5*34 gives....83,219 minutes equals to 1,387 hours or
....58days (assuming MAF soldier all no need rest, eat, shit, sleep
or even pee for 58 days, redbull all the way.)
Assuming if you do survive the first barrage, and recover from the
shock....you have 32min to mount a response, else within the next
32min, an area of 640sqkm will be reduce to wasteland.
yah... lor... my house
only 100 meter square niah... probably 1 SS-80 rocket direct hit...
enough liow.
This is their version of "Shock and Awe"....coming from the
MLRS.
The tube arty will followup with sustain arty fire.
That is why MLRS and tube arty are complementary.
Now tell me, would CEP be important here. Don't muddle yourself
with the leaves when what you need is a helicopter view.
tube artillery... soild
piece of stuff... plus the cargo rounds.. they make very big mess
of enemies position... due to high rate of fire and accuracy...
though they may not have the range of the A-2... i am sure that the
enemy frontline troops could not be more then 30 km away from our
forces right??
by the way... did some take a closer look at the leaves... of
144km blown away by 1 salvos of A-2???
i read somewhere that a 5 megaton nuke warhead has a blast radius
of 5km... which is to say... an area of 78.5kmsquare would be gone
by a single nuke warhead...
yet... unbelieavably... some malaysians actually can claim that an
MAF A-2 salvos has a destruction area of 144kmsquare.. that is
TWICE the blast radius of a 5 megaton warhead NUKE!!!!
frankly... i doubt that 144 A-2 rocket can even carry 1 million
tons TNT explosive and still able to fly 90km....
not to mention the possibility of carrying enough TNT to do the
damage equivalent to 10 million tons of TNT (equal to 2x 5 megaton
NUKE)
A little off topic......
I guess it's probably mentioned somewhere in all the pages
before.....but what's the effect of these submunitions on HDB
concrete and bomb shelters?
Seems to me only those on the higher floors will be affected plus
the precious reserve water in the water tanks there!
Good analysis tripwire!
Actually I was also looking for the data on the dispersion of
submunitions of rocket system, thank for providing the link.
Actually my simplistic view Circular Error Probable (CEP) was wrong
and I apologise to everyone here about it.
It is actually worst, remember the US General talk abt the
probabiity of hitting a stationary tow gun at range of 21km with a
pod of six rockets with a mean deviation of 50m with only 33% of
success!
A US MRLS rockets has abt 644 submunitions per rocket, which mean a
total 3,864 submunitions yet only 33% chance!!!
That is becos my understanding of the term CEP is wrong.I thought
that all rounds will hit within the CEP!!!
Below if the quote from some arty expert from another
forum:
Yes it is a Gaussian distribution, but instead using 'Standard
Deviations' (ie almost everything will be within 3 times SD
distance) military ballistics used PEs, where almost everything
falls within 4 times the PE distance, with 50% falling within 1
PE.
Data quality for artillery is mostly very good, although there are
some development firing ranges in some countries (we won't name
them) where the quality control leaves something to be desired.
However, real-world conditions are not necessarily as well-managed
as they are on development ranges.
Let me give example to explain, the Astros 2 let say has a CEP
of 1% mean deviation at range 89km, that mean the mean error is
890m, an area of pi x 890sq =approx 2.5 sq km with probability of
50%!!!!
Based on the distribution, that is 32% chance of with deviation 2
times of the CEP( 1 CEP is actually 1 PE, probable error) that is
from 890m to 1780m deviation.And abt 14% chance with deviation from
1780m to 2670m(3 times of PE) and lastly 4% chance with deviation
from 2670m to 3560m!!!!
Below is the distribution chart:
To have a better understanding about arty ballistics, below is link
abt the science of it, a bit "chim" but very good:
http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/6-40/Ch3.htm#p7
I hope you will have a better understanding of arty
ballistics.
With this data, if the Astros 2 is to target Woodland at range of
89km, I think there is 25% chance of hitting JB itself and the
surrounding water!!
CHARGE!!!
that bad huh?? i mean... i know that A-2 aint accurate... but
never realise it could go so far off target....
if so... they gonna need alot LOT LOT LOT more rockets then i
calculated if they wanna cover singapore with their cluster
munition. since many rockets would probably be hitting the same
place or end up in the sea or perhaps even inside malaysia and
right on top of malaysian troops!!
this is one weapon i dont want on my side!! its as good as carry an
expired grenade that could blow a hole in my tummy anytime!!
the bomb shelters
are more then a match for those puny cluster munition...
remember... cluster munition are meant for soft targets... against
bomb shelters with walls the thickness calculated in foots of
reinforced concrete... you gonna need the US bunker buster to do
the job.
as for those HDB flats... cluster munitions no good... you will
need 155mm AP or HEDP arty shells to knock them down.. and you will
need at least afew rounds to knock a HDB flat down depending on the
buildings structural strength and design.
in my personal opinion, present day flat design takes the HDB flats
strength to a new level.... with HS and most of the key pillars
pulled towards the central region of a flat... while the rest of
HDB structural exteriors are builds around it like add on applique
armor to take and absorb the direct impact... the rooms and
corridors could act as vents to permit the explosive gas to rush
through...
remember in GW1 and GW2... the americans uses LGB not cluster bombs
against iraqi buldings they wanna blow up.... they have good reason
to do so...
and against iraqi fortification and bunkers... the americans have
to come up with bunker busters and other deep throat bombs even
though they have lots of cluster bomb, cruise missile as well as
LGBs. all got reason one...
Exactly my point... that observe won't be back for some time
already, choosing the listen to his credible Maj. Gen, the same
credible person who if heard how he was being quoted by observe,
would probably slap observe's face ten times and ask him to apply
some logic and common sense when reading his statements.
Why would the malaysians even want to hit Singapore
indiscriminately? To kill civillians for no good reason? To earn
them international commendation for their prowess at using MLRS?
It's a stupid, unworkable plan that no sane Malaysian would
consider, this is something that only rabid, illogical MAF net
dwellers would consider. And of course, they have total faith in
their MLRS to do more damage then nuclear weapons as well.
How more delusional can they get?
On the subject of firepower and precision, it seems that SAF has
gone from the "more firepower" to "more precision" mentality. I
wonder has that translate to getting guided munitions and
submunitions (both 155 rounds and 120mm mortar rounds) for our guns
and mortars?
I was hoping that SAF would obtain smart munitions like BONUS and
Swedish STRIX.
It is stated in one website abt the SAF that SG has acquired a
licence to produce the Russian laser guided 155mm projectile
Krasnopol.The link is below, check the weapons section:
http://www.geocities.com/ptone50/
CHARGE!!!
Yap, seen it, but I don't believe it.