RSN's 'problem'?

last SG · 2003-12-26T10:56:45+00:00

I believe the unit is no longer called Handau....it's called PASKAU now. CSAR is just one of their function. They also provide base defence, sabotage of enem...

foxtrout8 SG

When i meant ' no significant underwater asserts ' doesnt mean that RMN doesnt operate any underwater weaponary , it is just that their underwater toys arent significant threat at all...

Talking abt conventional Submarines , Singapore aint the first country in SEA to operate them. Indonesia and Malaysia had submarine/(s) long ago. But in wat condition? If i will to speak , they are in rusty or at most in semi-operational condition . How significant can that be? In my opinion , they aint significant threats....

Arena SG

Any infos on what armaments n firepower are onboard these RMN vessels?

ChineseJunk SG

Hi there,
A nice effort but why didn't you include PASKAL in your case study? The unit operates a number of Subskimmers and is likely to cross train on the three Cosmos midget subs mentioned by other forumers.

What about the sizeable number of Swedish-made CombatBoats? These are rather useful for coastal hook ops.

Also, four Beech King Air 200s are operated by TUDM's "Canary" SKN in the maritime surveillance role.

Do remember that naval power is seldom accurately quantified via a straight forward comparison of fleet numbers, tonnage or naval aviation strength. Other unseen elements come into play too, like electronic warfare, sustainability of effort, crew morale, etc....

My 2 cents worth.

Cheers

db

observe SG

aren't significant threat at all ?

those subs actual sank an Indian Navy's frigate in 1971 Pak-Indian war.
Indian has recently introduced them too after realising how effective there were especially for shallow waters. Guess how deep are the waters in the Straits of Malacca and those surrounding S'pore. Ever wondered why was Courageous, an ASW PV, patrolling Pedra Branca?

Blue Dolphin SG

I share your concern that the Malaysian Navy is growing stronger by the day and with some significant purchases in the near future. While as much as I like us to maintain if not expand the capability gap, I am not so sure that we should then follow on with hardware purchases to do so. Moreover, as some of the senior members have rightfully pointed out, it is not JUST hardware comparision.

Perhaps we need to work harder on thinking out of the box and come up with simple idea but effective ones. I draw your attention to the way the egyptians penetrated Isreal defensive sandbank, they use water cannons, instead of conventional bombs.

Perhaps what we need is to "transform" warfare with new way of fighting. Stealth? New methods? Precision weapons? Was it not what Chief of Airforce that says today we think of how many targets for an aircraft rather than how many aircraft needed for a target.

I have faith that our RSN planners are not idling, perhaps they may already be working out a solution.

Blue Dolphin SG

What is LALEE UAV Question

Blue Dolphin SG

I think there are some new information in the straits times published during the trial that Courageous actually cross the bow of ANL and that ANL turned and ram into Courageous. This is quite irrelevant to having powerful waterjets. If a big truck next to and at the back of a posche on the expressway suddenly turn, how can you expect the posche to accelerate away!!! IMHO, ANL and the parent company has plenty to answer.

Driving a car on a well lit expressway is different from driving a car on an unlit road (for those who has driven overseas, you should know what I mean) and very different from driving in the open desert(try driving from LA to Las Vegas). I think it is even MORE different from driving a ship in the middle of the sea at night. The amount of information that the human eyes can see is vastly different and vastly less, so I think if we do not understand, lets do the RSN chaps some courtesy and not critise BLINDLY.

And I hope they spend more time training to fight wars than sailing in the yatch club Laughing I don't need them to win SEA game medals, I need them to kill the enemy and rape their families so that mine will not be harmed.

HARIMAU SG

LALEE will look something like this HERMES 1500 which already been purchased by SAF.So LALEE is a modified HERMES 1500 with AEW in mind.Bulky and make a good target though Rolling Eyes

On the RMN subsurface capabilities....well apart from the 2 SCORPENE SSK we also already received the AGOSTA 70B (armed with SSM SM39 EXOCET).if any of you guys ever been to Damai Laut resort (opp Lumut NB) you'll noticed the 2 Dutch SSK (brought there in 2001) are operational......sometimes there's one....sometimes there's none there......at times both are there.In short...the SSK are use by RMN.
Other than that rumours has it RMN PASKAL SOF operate Italian swallow water subs capable of carrying 16 commandos + armed with 2 Torpedo tubes.These subs are designed for shallow water (read straits etc) ops unlike SSK.PASKAL also got SDV MK IV and Subskimmer (eventhough not sub...still they provide subsurface capabilities).The new SOF centre in Mersing got 6 bay for mini subs......why the heck they bulit such bay if RMN do have any???? Twisted Evil

HARIMAU SG

AGOSTA 70B SSK
67.6M
1725 TONNE DIVED
8 OFFICERS,51 RATINGS
4 533MM TT AND SM 39 EXOCET

ZWAARDVIS SSK
66.92M
2620 TONNE DIVED
8 OFFICERS, 58 RATINGS
6 533MM TT
* According to the manufacturer the are leased to RMN

The SSK at Lumut NB.

Same SSK at Lumut NB

533MM Torpedo inside one of the SSK

|-|05| SG

No...the RSN ships had not crossed the bow.They would have if the the ANL ship had stayed on course however The the guy in charge of the ANL ship did not see it that way.So he followed the rules of the sea and turned to starboard(right side)

gary1910 SG

LALEE will look something like this HERMES 1500 which already been purchased by SAF.So LALEE is a modified HERMES 1500 with AEW in mind.Bulky and make a good target though

As for the LALEE, it has a large LR radar. I believe it will operate something like a modern MPA or Awacs(all of them propeller type for long endurance) , except it is unmanned. Therefore it survivability is as good as any long range LR survelliance system in the world, far away from any threats, and if neccessary with fighters escort.

On the RMN subsurface capabilities....well apart from the 2 SCORPENE SSK we also already received the AGOSTA 70B (armed with SSM SM39 EXOCET).if any of you guys ever been to Damai Laut resort (opp Lumut NB) you'll noticed the 2 Dutch SSK (brought there in 2001) are operational......sometimes there's one....sometimes there's none there......at times both are there.In short...the SSK are use by RMN.

If I am not wrong , the two old Dutch subs were only meant for training, and the lease was actually cancelled after the annoucement of the purchase of the Scorpene. Are you sure they are still with RMN?

CHARGE!!!

HARIMAU SG

Last time somebody went up there for a holiday (the resort) in September 03…..both SSK were there…..the next day….only one remained.

dkhoo SG

LALEE is supposed to be the replacement for our aging AWACS aircraft. If completed, it will be the world's first unmanned battle management UAV. If we are very lucky, it will have some of the capabilities of the American JSTARS in addition to the AWACS.

The HERMES 1500 is unlikely to be LALEE, since it is far too small to carry or power the kind of radar that LALEE will use. Currently, it seems that LALEE will be about the size of a 737 and operate at 60000 feet. The HERMES 1500 is probably a lower level asset meant for ground surveillance.

But then, with the kind of secrecy that shrouds the LALEE project, who knows?

gary1910 SG

According to this website, the dutch new submarine was never signed & the two old dutch subs for lease to RMN for training was not signed as well, therefore RMN never operated the two old Zwaardvis class , let alone operational in RMN. Please check your facts!!!

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boat_zwaardvis2.htm

Below is another link for the history of MY submarines deal, the deal suppose to have old subs for training as well as brand new modern subs for operation, as you know RMN has chosen the French deal.

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/export/export_malaysia.htm#Is%20RDM%20loosing%20all%20its%20possible%20clients

CHARGE!!!

Fairyland SG

LALEE is not the Hermes 1500 and Hermes 1500 is not with the SAF.

LALEE is a work in progress.......last public domain I'm aware of is that it will be one of Burt Rutan's innovative designs
http://www.scaled.com/

LALEE will be carrying among many other things, a 30m long antenna for the JSTAR synthetic aperture radar!

One other thing it will be carrying is a sunray oven Laughing and WE KNOW what's it's for Mr. Green

Fairyland SG

I don't doubt that RMN has the COSMOS 118 at all BUT do they have microwave ovens Laughing like the ones in RSN?

Latest rumors in RSN town is some divers have been sent to learn to ride the Russian supersonic torpedos - After they master the holding on bit, next how to steer, they learn how to EAT and steer, then they find out where the heck they going with it Mr. Green

Another email floating around that Saddam Hussein was actually discovered by an SAF officer? Twisted Evil

Just kidding.....Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

ChineseJunk SG

Pub Date: Feb 26, 2002 Pub: BT Page: 8
Author: DBOEY
Headline: Singapore' new drones make public debut
By: David Boey
Page Heading: Singapore News
Corporation: Ministry of Defence, Mindef, Singapore Technologies
Engineering, Defence Science and Technology Agency
Subject: Military Aircraft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mindef says the Lalee can carry pilot and fly at 60,000 feet THE Chief Defence
Scientist (CDS) at the Ministry of Defence (Mindef) yesterday released fresh
details of the giant Lalee unmanned drone and two new unmanned aerial vehicles
(UAVs) developed by Singapore Technologies Engineering.
Lui Pao Chuen, Mindef's CDS, said in his keynote address to an international
gathering of about 400 defence professionals at the C4I Asia Conference on
battle management that the Lalee drone will be designed to fly at around
60,000 feet. This will put the flying height of the drone - which can be
manned or unpiloted - 'above the airways'.
This is the first time Mindef has revealed the Lalee's operating height and
the fact that it can carry a pilot.
The Lalee UAV is a large twin-boom, single-span aircraft which carries its
sensor payload slung between a central pod. The drone's name is an acronym
which stands for 'low altitude, long-enduring endurance'.
The Lalee project is complemented by efforts to develop tiny new UAVs. These
drones - a Tailsitter UAV which is smaller than a golf bag and a palm-sized
device called the Sparrow - are being engineered by ST Engineering's unit, ST
Dynamics.
These tiny battlefield surveillance devices made their public debut at Asian
Aerospace 2002 this morning.
The C4I conference was held to discuss issues related to command, control,
communication, computers and intelligence - essentially the synergy of
weapons, computers, and wireless communications. Defence planners nowadays use
an extended acronym for battle management called 'C4ISR' with the last two
letters referring to surveillance and reconnaissance missions.
Prof Lui said Mindef's long-standing investments in aerial drones and other
advanced sensors underscores Singapore's commitment to giving its defences
more strategic depth.
Engineers from Mindef, the Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) and
ST Engineering are finishing the Lalee's preliminary design in partnership
with its US-based designer, Burt Rutan.
DSTA is using Asian Aerospace 2002 to showcase its capability in C4ISR
expertise. At yesterday's conference, one of DSTA's industrial partners, ST
Electronics, also unveiled its Futuristic Soldier System suite of advanced
weapons sensors for the first time.
Teo Chin Hock, director (CSO) at DSTA, told BT: 'We see our local defence
industry as a very critical and strategic partner, especially in providing
engineering development and supporting those systems we acquire.'
Mr Teo said DSTA engineers have been involved in C4I-related projects 'for a
long time' and are focusing on developing information capabilities through
'exploration, experimentation and evolutionary development', a concept known
in defence circles as E3D.
'Basically we go off and explore concepts, experiment with technology and
evolve a system. In this area, the battlefield is changing constantly and the
technology changes even faster. So we've to evolve the requirements and build
according to these changes,' he said.
Mr Teo said the E3D concept entails extensive use of modelling and computer
simulations by DSTA's battle labs. E3D allows Singapore to engineer customised
solutions for the Republic's C4ISR needs. A lot of such work involves joint
projects with foreign partners.
He said: 'We put a lot of focus on forging new partnerships both with local
and overseas R&D partners to share and innovate on ideas and conduct
experiments. We collaborate a lot with defence industry partners to produce
field and support systems that are evolved through this E3D approach.
'We are viewed as a very credible partner and we're placed on equal
partnership with our foreign friends in bringing things to the table. The
value that we bring to the table is in terms of new operational capabilities
that we have when we work together for our armed forces.'

A bit off topic from "Navies".... ..The article above appeared in The Business Times on 26 Feb, 2002.

Harimau... I somewhat suspect that "Lalee" will be a tad larger than the UAV you mentioned. Thanks much for your spec ops pictures. Do you have any of PASKAL or HANDAU? I saw them on parade on Sept 16... funky berets!

Cheers

db

HARIMAU SG

I strongly believed the Dutch SSK were "given" FOC to the RMN as a sweetener - PSC (the ones who brought the SSK here) are the ones who got the RM5.4B contract for the 6 NGPV (with billions more -21 more ).That could be the most logical explaination coz till last Setember (some source even mentioned till today...but i dont dare to mentioned since i dont really know them that well) the SSK still at Lumut.Maybe one of u guys could went up there to verify it Rolling Eyes
BTW not everything posted by internet source news are up to date or correct.If it is correct.....then most Armed Forces could actualy save some money on intell gathering.My facts are correct......and i challenge any of you to prove to me otherwise(apart from posting dated news......have any of you guys read MINDEF official statement with regards to the Dutch SSK????None right???....ever wonder why????)

I just might post some SOF images in the future Wink

foxtrout8 SG

those subs actual sank an Indian Navy's frigate in 1971 Pak-Indian war.
Indian has recently introduced them too after realising how effective there were especially for shallow waters. Guess how deep are the waters in the Straits of Malacca and those surrounding S'pore.

If there are significant underwater threats in our region , the Sjoormen wont even cross Singapore's mind....

Do u know that our MPA do not have anti-submarine capability? I was shock when i confirmed that info with a MPA crew during open house. History had shown that Mindef will do anything possible to face a threat especially a threat that is sensitive to our security, why arent we doing anything to face a SIGNIFICANT underwater threat if there is one....?

Ever wondered why was Courageous, an ASW PV, patrolling Pedra Branca?

lolx , read PV ( Patrol Vessel )...

foxtrout8 SG

Mindef had released informations that the LALEE have a size of a Boeing 737 , armed with a 19m x 3 m radar ( if i remember it correctly ) and can perform high endurance surveillence circling . I believe the LALEE might be replacing the E-2C in her naval role or even be replacing the E-2C altogether with better surveillence technology in place in it..

I will expect a JSTAR similar system on it so as to supplement our ground surveillence capability. With newer artillery and armour threats overseas , we might be interested to know wat is happening real time on ground level ..

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