Lelong in 2nd hand weapons Mkt

last SG · 2003-10-30T19:02:48+00:00

This has been discussed in many threats before, anyway, here is a brief summary I believe constitute to the "weight" issue in MBTs. 1. Gross weight This is...

gary1910 SG

The M60 AVLB in the Armoured Engineers coy that support Armoured Bde is true with only bridge span of abt 19m but could be lay within 2 mins, they r meant for small river /ravine & tank ditches that the enemy has dug out to slow any armoured forces which might not be forseen by our forces. They r there to ensure that the armoured forces are not slow down by any natural or man made obstacles that is why they should have the same mobility as the armoured forces they support & has quick laying & recovery of bridge to be effective.

Since the current AVLB we have only a class 60, it could not support the Leopards which is 62tons, unless there is new class of AVLB that I am not aware of.

It is true that larger river will need special bridging equipment for the armoured force to cross but they r also slower in term of deployment & they r usually planned for since large river will not suddenly appear but tank ditches do.

kanzer SG

***post deleted*** Smile

|-|05| SG

The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers which arent really that deep.....though the rest need to use pontoon bridges or build 1.

akula SG

I feel that the Leopards are definitely a good potential. British made the mistake that tanks are not suitable here. am wondering if our SAF is making a similar mistake by thinking that heavy MBT has no place here. Tempest….. no one I know off ever seen them. do they exist in the first place. If they do exist means SAF do believe in them. All the more should try getting those Leopards. Apache can’t be all the time around with the front guys.

Typhoon SG

Singapore does not need a new MBT for the next 20 years at least. Tankees should know why.

gary1910 SG

I dun think the British has made a mistake becos you will talking abt many countries making the same mistakes. I have compiled a list of countries that has mostly tropical rain forest namely from SEA & South America:

Argentina-----TAM 30 tons
Venezuela----AMX-30 36 tons
Cambodia-----T-54/55 36 tons
Vietnam--------T-54/55 36 tons T-62 40 tons
Thailand-------Type69 37 tons M48A5 49 tons M60A3 53 tons
Malaysia-------PT-91 46 tons
Singapore-----Tempest 52 tons

As you can see from the list above, most countries from the regions I mentioned do not operate MBTmostly light tanks.
Even they operate them, they r generally below 40 tons. Those above 40 tons are also mostly small in number except for Vietnam(200 T-62s) & Thailand(175 M48s & 53 M60s) & maybe even SG.

The point is there is no example of a conventional warfare operating 40+ tons MBT in the past for us to gauge it's effectiveness in rain forest terrain. The lower the weight, the lower ground pressure which mean better cross country mobility but lesser firepower & armour protection. The opposite is say for the heavy tanks.

Therefore light tanks(below 25 tons), medium tanks(25-40 tons) & current crop of heavy tanks(40-60+ tons) , their effectiveness is everybody guess.

But as the region is getting more & more urbanised, it is certainly good to have some MBT with u.

As for whether there are any Tempests in the SAF, Yes,they have.
I know where they r & I have been there.

SingaporeMacross SG

Huh? Why? Is it classified to tell us?

gary1910 SG

I sorry abt inaccuracy of the list MBT that I posted earliar, it was based on info from Jane's A&A 96-97 which was extremely inaccurate since that is quite a lot of changes for South America for the last few years, it seem that a lot of the phased out MBTs were going to there. Sad

Here the updated list :

Brazil----Leopard1 42 tons M60A3 53 tons
Chile-----Leopard1 42 tons AMX30 36 tons
Ecuador-T-55 36 tons
Peru------T-55 36 tons T-62 40 tons T-72 42tons
Uruguay--T-55 36 tons

It seem that is quite a arms race in term MBT for the last few years in South America.

solaris SG

YES Twisted Evil

IAF SG

doesn't brazil also have their homemade tank, the osario?

espanol_man SG

Blockhead: "i am a Blockhead..... at least that's what my girlfriend keeps saying!"

wah lau, the lurve is there, man.... so do u think my wife calls me a spanish lurver? hee hee hee Laughing

how come you all change topic from tanks to MLC? sure we dun have anything above MLC60? how the heck we gonna get our 'stuff' over man? what if we lose the causeway?

|-|05| : "The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers "

wah lau, what are we waiting for? let's go get them before someone else beats us to it!!!

Typhoon : "Singapore does not need a new MBT for the next 20 years at least. Tankees should know why."

hee hee hee, i also know why... but i not Tankee.... shhhhh... cos we got Death Star hidden behind the moon rite? Laughing

seriously, why? Is it really so classified? ok lar... just hint hint lor.... is it better than PT91 or Leopard2? which country? US, Israel etc? Not russian i hope!? Shocked

bcoy SG

I don't think it ever went into production.

Blockhead SG

Amigo,
wah lau, the lurve is there, man.... so do u think my wife calls me a spanish lurver? hee hee hee

Er... i dunno.. Does she?! Shocked

|-|05| : "The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers "

Talked to a Dutch guy once who used to drive Leopards during his service, and he said they rarely did it. He said there is a limit how deep and how far u can go with this, and that it can be 'dangerous'. I remember him saying that its dark, its wet (cos the tank leaks like a sieve) and if u have a engine problem, u are stuck.

seriously, why? Is it really so classified?
Well, there is the tempest, which is available on open sources. Let's just say anything else is not relevant to our discussion here and let it rest, can?

gary1910 SG

Originally posted by Blockhead:

|-|05| : "The Leo2 is capable of erm....going under water to cross all the rivers "

Talked to a Dutch guy once who used to drive Leopards during his service, and he said they rarely did it. He said there is a limit how deep and how far u can go with this, and that it can be 'dangerous'. I remember him saying that its dark, its wet (cos the tank leaks like a sieve) and if u have a engine problem, u are stuck.[/b]

You r right, most this so called amphibious AFV must be taken wif a pinch of salt. Even our AI who have to do river crossing training using their M113s r scared stiff cos accident happened b4 even though with lots of preparation in the sense of ensuring seal & pumps r all ok .

So a responsible commander will try to aviod it by having bridges etc to cross river during operation. It just simply too risky.

Joe Black SG

The Leopard1/2 tanks, AMX-30 tanks and the Russian tanks all have the capability to fold to a depth of 4 metres or more. However, the way they cross are slightly different. The Russian would deploy snorkels, not very different from those of the submarines to draw air into the tank compartment and for the engine, and release exhause fumes. The German and the French use large tubes for the tank commanders to crawl on top to navigate as well as to draw air into the tank, somewhat like a conning tower.

Anyway, I wouldn't like to be one of the people inside a fully submerged tank.

Back to the topic about Leo2A6, I still think it is quite an impossible ask to get them. I can think of how SAF would justify the implications, both militarily and politically to acquire a Leo2A6. In any case, if SAF is to get an MBT, I would rather see Lelerc or a dieted Mekarva Baz 3 with some Mekarva 4 features. Smile

Typhoon SG

Your wish may come true sooner than expected.

espanol_man SG

Blockhead: Well, there is the tempest, which is available on open sources. Let's just say anything else is not relevant to our discussion here and let it rest, can?

wah... so secretive.. ok lor... i orso dun want to get into trouble...

OEI! TO YOU ALL WHO ARE READING OUR POSTS, WE DUN KNOW ANYTHING AND WE DIN'T SAY NOTHIN'!!!! Neutral

Typhoon : Your wish may come true sooner than expected.

oei typhoon... careful hor... scarly got people come and ask u to "lim kopi"... just kidding hor... Mr. Green

BaKa NeK0 SG

Very Happy hahaha True True! Singapore sure have lots of hidden equipments Wink

akula SG

Thanks for the correction.
Indeed that more tropical countries are taking heavy MBT more seriously. But not true also that heavy tanks are not tested in the tropical. A good example is the China, vietnam war in 1979. Chinese moved heavy armoured units over the thought impassable jungle valley of pan she gu to surprise Lang Son. Surprising the defenders with tanks appearing out of the jungle. Lang Son falls in 2 to 3 days under heavy armoured assault.

In fact China captures (Lang Son, Lao Cai, ha Giang, Cao Bang, Dong Ke, That Ke, and Mon Cai) in just a short span of 20+ days.
Though chinese not quite win over the vietnamese.

It is a great show of armour capabilities in the tropicals.
http://www.china-defense.com/history/sino-vn_1/sino-vn_1-1.html
Picture on the first page shows that heavy armour is used in vietnam when china fought vietnam.

China had T-62s (41 ton) and T54/55 (37 ton) respectively, so did the vietnamese then. It is not whether the weapon is useful in tropical or not. It is a matter of who and how to use them.

Certainly glad to hear we do have tempest. but should be very old by now right?

Typhoon SG

The Tempest is old news lah. Most have already been retired and put into storage underground.

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