unauthorised training caused the death of a national service

last SG · 2003-10-16T21:49:40+00:00

a lot of bad things happening there huh? including being banned from best unit competition..

[email protected] SG

thats where u are wrong. now they do give NSF 2sg ranks liao.
it depends on vocation, and as he was a guardsmen sniper, hence the rank. I had a disruptee in my office a while back. He was an ordinary NSF, but he took a long disruption to study architecture. he had a 2sg rank and was in his late twenties, so i mistook him for a regular, but found out later he was a NSF. apparently, he told me that back b4 he disrupted, it was very common for NSF 3SGs to be promoted to 2SGs due to a lack of manpower, hence his rank.
so its not true that NSF WILL NEVER have the rank of 2sg.

[email protected] SG

captain also in trouble...

wah kopi! damn violent siah!
the pilot next time take off then wun land anymore right? haha
then we know who serviced the plane liao

Gedanken SG

It is probably better to make the comparison with professional armies. The real pros do not pull stunts like this, so that only strengthens the case against the idiot who drowned the trainee.

kopiosatu SG

I'll be killed lah! not him!

but i want to kill him also can

wuming78 SG

in the navy case, the fault does not lie solely on the navy side. and there is no gross negligence and over-sight, and outright and blatant disregard for regulations and guidelines.

in the army case, it was established that the instructors disregarded the guidelines and regulations.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Soldiers are no good in a war if they are all killed off during training. One also needs to know that our service to the nation in this area is not something many of us do on our own accord, but are rather conscripted by a system deviced by the govt. The very least they can do is make sure everything is done to give us the highest chance of surviving this liability.

[email protected] SG

Originally posted by Gedanken:
It is probably better to make the comparison with professional armies. The [b]real pros do not pull stunts like this, so that only strengthens the case against the idiot who drowned the trainee.[/b]

hmmm... true actually...

[email protected] SG

eh eh... without kopi... airforce cannot fly liao

lotus SG

I totally agree with what 35MM Gunner said.
For those who died serving the SAF during peace time, it is a loss to SG as there are lesser and lesser males to do NS. Also my sympathies to the family of the late for the pain and anguish they are going thru. Life and death is already predestined. When the time for a person is up, no matter what he/she is doing, they will leave this world. There are news reported that a healthy person could die when sleeping etc... Get what I am trying to say?

I did my NS from '92 to '94. We had been 'tekan' as and when the specialists like and also the harsh trainings yet no one died (of course to compare my time and those who serve NS earlier than me, mine is nothing to them).

Before these 3 sad incidents happen, countless of men died in peace time training, but the attention was not as big as this and mostly all have been covered up. NSF today are given too much welfare, with what Defence Minister said in parliment yeasterday, I believe it will be more switch off..e.g. compulsory lights off at 10pm, after which no more 'tekan' or standby bed, sekali now abolished liao.

NS is supposed to turn boys to man with those tough trainings and discipline but now, I think boys after NS are still boys... Crying or Very sad Mad

Can we depend on SAF to defend SG when there is a crisis in future? NOoooo! I can't imagine too much anyway it will never happen. I suggest MINDEF withdraw all the 'garang' ads and commerical available to the public to save $$$ if our army are going soft. Let's hope Tim Huxley won't give our Army discounts in his next book on SG defence. Slogans quoted from the ads & commerical, "what u can't defend is not yours", "We never mistake peacefulness for peace", "who has the training" and more which i can't remember. puke.....

Yawn......i am getting bored now..

kopiosatu SG

very true... don't know why they even complain abt BMT lifestyle... so blardi relaxing now.

[email protected] SG

fag head... that tough training left u with permernant brain damage right? go and get drowned 4 times n see if u can live... not that it'd be a big loss to lose a vegetable like u.

sorrowz SG

still lives were lost in both cases. the naval vessel is a military vessel that is supposed to be on 24hrs alert. collision like that is not supposed to happen to naval vessels. The captain is responsible for his two officers' actions and the lives of his dead crews. why then are the two officers the only one persecuted. for the case of the cdos, the responsiblity somehow warrant the relieve of command all the way to the top. isn't that a discrepancy in holding the people responsible?

wuming78 SG

navy case: proper procedures were followed. accident was circumstantial and unforeseen.

army case: proper procedures were not followed and not due to ignorance but blatant disregard and risk-taking in the name of training.

[email protected] SG

e captain also was relieved of his duty right?

wuming78 SG

i don't think its necessary to use such language. we can always attack one's viewpoints and arguments without making personal attacks and throwing up emotions. blurring the line between the two does not contribute or add value to discussions.

just my two cents.

sorrowz SG

the loss of your friend is sad. but many have gone through the same SERE, countless sessions of takans and yet survived. To those who cried for heads to roll and bloods to flow, how many of you have undergone the same SERE conducted in hendon. ask yourself are you crying for blood becuz the incident involves cdos who somehow drew much irk from you or are you really concern about the plight of those who are "being tortured". I personally have gone through the SERE package and it was a real experience for me. But compare our SERE and to those conducted by the other armies, ours is definitely considered very very tamed.

Yes it is not right to compare our cdos to the SAS, SEALS, etc because ours is not a professional army like theirs. But that does not mean that we have to be wussies and cry out for heads to roll for unauthorized training.

It will be sad if the death of the guardsman will mean the toning down of the SERE package of the SAF. Doing that will only mean that more of our boys will not be able to hack it should the shit hit the fan. The death should not happen, but it did. We should learn from it and hopefully, SAF trainers will be more mindful of the trainees' welfare when pushing them to the breaking point.

sorrowz SG

if i remebered correctly, the naval vessel was in the wrong sea lane, made a wrong turn. hardly a case of "accident was circumstantial and unforeseen.".

[email protected] SG

here SAF is trying to improve its safety standard and professionalism in standards and there you are supporting unauthorised training. wow......
want tougher training? no one is saying that we can't have tougher training. no noe is saying we must slack off. but we must make sure all training procedures are reviewed, with clear guidelines, and cleared by the operations branch of MINDEF. simple. submit lesson plan. run a risk assesment for the training proposed. get it approved by the senior commanders, by MINDEF. make sure proper guidelines are written. THAT should have been done, instead of taking matters into their own hands.

if we stick to this mentality that "traditionally we have done this so it is ok", then SAF can never reach the level of professionalism they aspire to reach.

lotus SG

[email protected], can you pls talk in a proper manner?! Evil or Very Mad The way u reply in your posting could neither kill me nor make my day bad, it only reflects ur personalities, bad upbringing, showing us what kind of person u are. I pity your parents... Crying or Very sad If you want to 'fight', 'fight' like a man. haiz..........

I dun want to waste my time talking to uncivilised pple.... bye.........

[email protected] SG

yah right... keep your descriptions of yourself private... dun come n let us know that u were all that and more, thank you very much.

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