Mistral Sam system in RSN , obsolete??? Replacement??

last SG · 2003-04-08T13:17:07+00:00

i think if barak fails, u don't have to bother with your mistral. .. . it'll have to be fired BEFORE your anti-ship missile comes within the Mistral's envelo...

foxtrout8 SG

Our Navy is rather cute i would say. We run one of the world's smallest craft as our main surface Combatant , however yet one of the most well equipped , with relatively up to date technology (as a whole) and supported by a well formated logistic network. Yet i would say , there are still very clear loopholes in some of the Naval system.

The twin Mistral system is one major example. With the growing naval air threats in the region , its rather pathetic to see our well armed ship being protected with this short ranged , manual launch SAM. In previous threads , one could argue that our past naval doctrine was more onto littoral defense , thus a longer ranged SAM isnt necessary . However still I dun think these Mistral system well protect our ship well agaisnt incoming SSM , which are a threat even in littoral mission.

Could we discuss on ur views whelther is the Mistral System obsolete to enemy air threats and if so , will there be a replacement .

redrooster79 SG

SA-2 baby.....SA-2 Laughing

bigballs11 SG

The barak point defence system is more than capable for the job but will require large compartment space to house these stuff so I won't see it a viable option on missile gun boat size naval vessile.

BTW, would like to see how the barak-ER (extended range) fare as the current barak only has a range of 12 odd km

laser51088 SG

Erm. .. You sure there is a Barak ER??????

Anyway, here are a couple of good sources of info for the Barak . ..its hard to find info on it. ..somehow Israeli armaments don't make it big on the internet.. . .

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/sea_missiles/barak/Barak.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Barak.html

If not the barak, then how do you guys think the RIM-7 Sea Sparrow (sea version of AIM-7) will perform? Note its much longer range but also larger size. . .

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/rim-7.htm

The RIM-7P version sounds pretty good, especially I think most of the time, the most important target for these shipborne SAMs will be Anti-ship missiles, many of which will be sea-skimming to make them harder to detect. . .

Also check out the:

Aster 15
Aster 30

Note these might come on the new delta frigates, so it owuld not be a bad idea to arm all of RSN's ships with them in future. Considering the great range of the Aster 30 (3km to 80km), but the 3 km will have to be covered by the guns though. . .You'll want a pretty large number of these aboard, read the FAS website, the Aster 30 missed by 4 meters, its very good, but probably not good enough to save your ship. . .

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aster.htm

The above is basically ALL that I think should be considered from what I've seen so far. . .

Basically, I think they should equip the all the ships with a 32-cell VLS system for air defence, cos even if the ships are meant for coastal defence, Anti-ship missiles can still be fired at them, and they'll have nothing to shoot back unless they have CIWS, which RSN has never used and do not intend to use. . .

bigballs11 SG

I should say the Barak-ER would be the upcoming Barak 2 which has both the naval VLS configuration and land based "patriot" alternative version. Mr. Green

We currently own the Barak 1 VLS on our coverttes.

Get barak, we can 1 stone kill 2 birds and mostly probably it will be manufactured and enhanced locally together with the spikes assembly.

As for sea sparrow rim-7, it is mainly for large aerial target and it slower response time is not effective against sea skimming missiles SSM or ASM. Besides, it can't vector thrust like barak.

bigballs11 SG

Moonstriker SG

heh. land based version of Barak...
quite cool to replace rapiers?

|-|05| SG

The mistral is like the stinger......used to shoot down choppers nia.....i mean it's range is like what? 2Nm? practically useless!As for the Barak you sure it's only 7Nm range? and the Aster being a mere 20Nm?!i maybe alittle rusty but the Excoet is like 20Nm range too right? Meaning all we can do it engage the missile when it is already fired and does not fit well with our idea of deterence! i say we should get something with a range of at least 25Nm i suppose like the SM-2 Mr. Green

foxtrout8 SG

Aegis Combat System is the man. I will like to see it in our Delta Frigate , one Aegis system along the Strait of Singapore and near the strait of Johore can protect the whole of Singapore from air threats ranging from aircraft to rockets. If it can protect such a big area , one ship in midst of one strike fleet will be enough to counter air threat in our region.

As for the replacement of the Mistral , i will vote for the Barak Missile defence system. 10km range Barak will be sufficent for the PVs as they are armed for Littoral defense. If the PVs will be missioned to follow a strike package , i believe a large combatant such as the Delta will have the enough fire power as the first line of defense.

Matlaysia SG

Delta frigate is too small for such a system. However, it might have a similar abiet shorter range system called the arabel which can be used to guide 8 aster simutaneously.

Matlaysia SG

Mistral is being used on the charles De Gulle the newest french carrier and is far from outdated. The purpose of the mistral is to provide point protection for a ship and is similar to that of the RAM. However, I agree that the 2 missile launcher is insufficient to meet our needs today, maybe the Navy can consider upgrading it to the 6 cell simbad laucher instead

foxtrout8 SG

For wat i know , the Sadral system isnt manual launch so comparing it to the manually launch Simbad , the six cell is a much reliable one. However still i find that the 4 km range missile have to be replace by one with longer range to increase reliability.

I think u made a mistake , the Simbad is Twin-celled while the Sadral is Six-celled .

|-|05| SG

err...4km range??thats a mere 1.8Nm!!!!!
if the missile thats to tat range the ship is more or less screwed......heck the sea vulcan has a range of 3Nm!

laser51088 SG

It isn't just the range that matters, the idea is that the thing must be very accurate, it isn't easy hunting a sea-skimmming missile, why do you think many larger ships have CIWS to destroy anti-ship missiles despite having supposed anti-missile missiles onboard?

laser51088 SG

definitely. . , its longer range but prob is that it ain't as light. . .

laser51088 SG

Cos a carrier got other ships protecting it, and in terms of air defence, its fighters are supposed to take care of it! Mistral is seriously lacking in range and capability. . ., if any enemy launches an anti-ship missile at the Mistral armed ships, they might as well sit there and wait to die. . . .

foxtrout8 SG

Frankly speaking other then the range , i find that space allowance is another major advantage that the Barak can provide. Comparing to the Rapier , the VLS Barak require a much lesser land clearance to launch. This is essential for urban and Jungle hubbed Singapore.

In other threads , i did state abt having multiple static Barak Missile system in various stratigical points in Singapore (eg Camps , government nerve centres ) and some mobile launchers to be deployed overseas or around Singapore. I believe a network of Barak 16-cell SAMs around Singapore will provide adequete capacity to down most of the air threat in the region , while I-Hawk or heavier missile act as the front line.

Back to the topic , anyone in the Navy know y the Mindef still retain the Mistral or anyone have any idea how reliable the Mistral be in drowning sea-skimming missiles ?

Matlaysia SG

what I meant is that mistral is meant for point defense. Not for long range defense against cruise missiles.. for the following reasons

1) Fearless PC are supposed to be steath and connot be detected at cruise missiles max range

2) Fearless class PC are supposed to protect our coast and will probably fight with other Patrol craft armed with within the horizon weapons like the sea skua. which can be stopped using the mistral

3) Why only a 2 cell launcher is another question I wish to ask RSN.. My guess is the 6 cell laucher is too large for it. Or if it can be manually fitted when necessary, RSN can unveil its capability at the time of need

Matlaysia SG

pardon me I must have misread the dcn webpage

foxtrout8 SG

for ur first point......> huh?

Yes the Mistral can stop a Skua , but isnt it risky??? It is manually launch and u have to see the missile coming.... If the Mistral is to protect a ship designed for littoral defense , then are u trying to state that the MGBs are for littoral defense too.

The onli reason i can think of is that , the PVs and the MGBs will be accompanied by a MCV which will provide frontline defence agaisnt SSMs , however wont that increase the workload of our 6 MGBs???

The six celled launcher is better as it is controlled by infra-red carmera and target aqquisation device for all weather operation.