MALAYSIA TEST THEIR MESSILE

last SG · 2003-03-08T23:18:04+00:00

There is already something as the land-based barak missile in the market. I believe ST will not have problems manufacturing it with Rafael. It may be a reaso...

tripwire SG

no doubt about it... i would hate to be on the recieving end of the MRLS and knowing that our arty cant take it out even if our arty can hit 100km range since the mobility of the A 2 would easily enable it to make a run for it before the counter battery shells hit....

this would imply that... with the increase mobility of long range platforms.. it is becoming more and more vital for all military units including infantry and armor to have fleeting legs to avoid being on the recieving ends of a massive long range attack...

it would also imply that some sort of protection from such a platform is becoming more and more urgently required...

else... everyone would sooner or later purchase huge amount of such platforms and a war of attrition will ensue..

just think.... wat if thailand also buy a hundred A 2 laucher, singapore buys 200 and indonesia buy 300 launcher??

at 90 km range... if indonesia deploys 300 A 2 launcher in sumatra... the entire peninsula malaysia can be hammered into the ground... Mr. Green

CX SG

yeah... some protection is necessary for today's battlefield... at this rate, the average life expectancy of an infantryman in enemy's territory will be all of about 100 sec Mr. Green the same amount of time it takes for a rocket to reach them...

but as u pointed out before, such rockets are immensely expensive ... and at the rate the launchers spew them out, u'll see the bottom of your defence budget before the enemy has time to rise up (or down) into the afterlife Mr. Green i think Huxley pointed out that this was one of the man reasons Sg balked at the idea of buying the US MLRS system previously.

but there's really little anyone can do other than take them out before they have a chance to strike... or have one of those tactical battlefield laser system to shoot down the incoming rockets (which is still in its experimental stage, is very expensive and not very mobile)

observe SG

Originally posted by CX:

yeah... some protection is necessary for today's battlefield... at this rate, the average life expectancy of an infantryman in enemy's territory will be all of about 100 sec the same amount of time it takes for a rocket to reach them...

but as u pointed out before, such rockets are [b]immensely expensive ... and at the rate the launchers spew them out, u'll see the bottom of your defence budget before the enemy has time to rise up (or down) into the afterlife Mr. Green i think Huxley pointed out that this was one of the man reasons Sg balked at the idea of buying the US MLRS system previously.

but there's really little anyone can do other than take them out before they have a chance to strike... or have one of those tactical battlefield laser system to shoot down the incoming rockets (which is still in its experimental stage, is very expensive and not very mobile)

[/b]

got a point there!

here's what i think....the purchase of the Astros II is for defensive use. If they plan to use it as an offensive weapon, they would have gotten the shorter range SS30/SS40 rockets where you get more rockets per launchers. If they want to launch pre-emptive strike, they can position the lauchers in johor for such a purpose, and comes H-hour, just fire salvoes of the rockets.

How to position it in Johor without being detected etc can be left to the military planners....not so difficult right, night movement, paint the trunks so that it looks like an ice cream trunk (Astros II don't look much diff from normal commercial trucks unlike US tracked MLRS) etc etc.

The reason they chose the longer range rockets is that they plan to put it far away from sg, but yet be able to move it quickly via the network of highways. So if sg arty launch pre-emptive strike, they will counter with longer range Astros II and since MLRS can blanket large target areas, shoot and scoot method with FH2000 no longer effective.

So that is why some rumours say that FH2000 is to be put on reserve when M109 version comes in service.....M109 provide armor protection to the crew unlike FH2000. Not sure about the effectiveness of M109 against anti-tank submunitions tho....seems like M109 is quite light compared to the euro SP arty. Still some protection is better than nothing.

Only problem about the AStros II is that it generates a huge smoke cloud from the backblast.....location can be detected once fired, but only useful if you can strike fast coz, its quite mobile.

just my opinion....

Atobe SG

When the US Army ordered the LOCKHEED Martin Vought MRLS System, the targetted order size was for 857 systems, that will include the Launching Vehicles, Command Vehicles, Logistic Reloading Vechles, all for a total targetted price of US$1.969 Billion.

Average Unit Cost was then fixed at US$2.3 million each.

The Brazilian Astros II should be comparable in unit costs, if not lower; and given inflation at 5 percent per annum from a base period of 1999, it cannot exceed this US unit cost for the Vehicle launcher itself.

How can each firing of the MRLS cost Ringgit 20 million per salvo of 48 shells - which makes it about US$110,000 per rocket ?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m270.htm

CX SG

could be that they factored in logistics costs... and the costs of the refreshments served at the reception afterwards, and the costs which their twisted bumi caterer inflated and the costs which some corrupt higher ups siphoned off Mr. Green

just kidding, but one never knows

Tango1 SG

I guess the 24 SA (Fire Finders) has to be fast enough to detect the trajectory of the rockets...IF they are within range of our 155s.

Another solution is to use special forces...like the Scud-Hunters of the Gulf War, these guys could be called Astro hunters....hahaha! Mr. Green

tripwire SG

i think a better way to counter the A 2 is to have a system similar to the IDF's harpy... which can loiter over a huge area... and strike at the A 2 on sight....

alternatively... we will need to gain air superiority and use the falcons to conduct CAP with A 2 hunting as a priority...

but i feel that the best method to take out the A 2 is acutally by dropping FAEs using either the storm shadow or locally developed firefly on KL for every A2 rocket lauched at us... Mr. Green

Moonstriker SG

Maybe can suggest standby of 4 vipers armed with Mavericks and AA missiles accompanied by a lets say EW aircraft... When the launch site detected, proceed to the site and blast it up before it/they fire one more time....
Astro Hunters... cool... insertion into malaysia ain't that difficult... Wink

|-|05| SG

what is the reload speed of the A2’s ar? from totally empty to fully loaded?

Anza Andy SG

24SA (Fire Finder) TPQ 37 has a detection range of only 50km. It will be not a good asset against Astro. If the war happen, it is very likely that the emeny will get their 1 or 2 round of fire in action before we can detect and destory it. The bad news for SG is that MY is likly to buy somemore ASTRO in 2 years.

Atobe SG

To handle the threat of the ASTROS MLRS, we will need to attack it from the air, from the use of a combination of constant watch with RPVs, and our air force attacking these threats with smart weapons launched from a distance.

The ownership of an airborne battle management system similar to the US Air Force J-Stars will boost the efficiency of our strike force, and the balanced use of our assets for attack, protection, defense, and withdrawals.

Several platforms are available P-3 Orion, Boeing 707, Ebraier, Fokker (which no longer exist, but we have about 4 such planes for Coastal Patrol), or the conversion of a C-130.

laser51088 SG

F-16? waste deploying them like that?

if u want a good constant response to arty i think best bet is in helicopters, but if you just wanna get something in there fast adn take out only targets in one area, the A-4SU is there for a reason. . .at least until they are replaced. . .

yep, who said arty must be thrown against mlrs, why not throw in the air assets. . but at the rate the number of targets for choppers keep popping up, the RSAF is definitely going to need more than 20 Apaches. . .

and for air battle management. . . erm, E-2C? i think they can do the job. . .they are AEW, but they can also serve to guide the air force planes to their targets and manage the skies, only thing is they must be constantly protected by other planes else i think a dimwit pilot can also shoot it down. . .

Anza Andy SG

Anyway, A2 will have the first round of fire before sg can detected and destory it. And this one round of fire will cost sg great damage. The point is how can sg destory it before it can into it first round?

MushyMaro SG

protected? very hard especially when they are armed with BVR missiles. They just fire a volley and run... . so how do the E-2C counter that? what is the chance of evading them?

observe SG

yep, the range of the firefinders are about 50km....so unless sg gets a better upgrade, it won't be so effective against MLRS 90km away. Moreover, how does it performs against massive rocket attack.....will the large numbers of rockets overload the computing power of the system ?

Visual targetting from the air is more realistic....but then only after launching can you see the huge smoke cloud.

Tho RSAF is the top dog in SEA, its still no where near the capability of the USAF in Iraq where they had total supremacy over the airspace plus a whole host of satelites and JSTARS to help them in '91. Even with this, Scud hunting was not really a resonding success. M'sia thick vegetation is far more challenging compared to Iraq's desert terrain.

Even with the above challenges, and to his credit, the M'sian General has not ignored the possibilty of air attack. Hence, the 2nd part of the news release where he mentioned about the induction of new Shorads and manpads system.

Clearly, the entire demostration was a PR exercise and to serve as a warning that the capability gap will be narrowed. Expect more arm purchases to be announced end this year at Lima '03.

Anza Andy SG

Before sg can destory the A2 , sure there will be few Shorads and sa17 waiting for rsaf.

Tango1 SG

Exactly, that's why you may need ground troops, or rather SOF-types to destroy it. Small unit actions. All this is of cos' dependent on GOOD INTEL. Laughing

|-|05| SG

actually thick vegetations make things easier....why? well for 1 you are going to need a cleaning to place those A2's.Those will be limited to start with.Sure you can blow up trees and make your own clearings....but thats gonna take time and will sure as hell alert intel that the A2's are in the area so it aint as easy as it seems.....

CX SG

SCUD plinking didn't work all that well in the last gulf war... what makes u think astros plinking would work any better?

foxtrout8 SG

Actually we can pre-program SSM/ Cruisemissile to areas where there is thick vegetation. When intell will to report any movement of Astros to the area , with coordination , we can fire the SSM (with cluster munition maybe) into the area, removing them.

Singapore have been known to produce mines , y not jus mine up most of the cleanings on the map , minimising their operation area. Mines with destructable fuse will be good so as to clear it up after the war , yet we are able to slow the A2 down. Once the A2 are up , we are almost dead , thus the govt ( being so calm now ) should be thinking of a solution either to counter the rockets on air , or to destroy it before it fires.

The A2 test fire is on sea and if we are capable enough , actually our Sjoormen can recon great deal out of that. Eventhough we cant escalate the real firepower of the A2 on water , we can still do alot of calculations on it.

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