Which car to buy???? So many of them!!!!!

SeeTees SG

Yo Joe Legal,

I agreed with what you said about drawing a line between looks and performance. No doubt being typical Singaporeans we would still more or less prefer "you-pi, you-qi, you TLN" kinda of attitude when buying things, especially such priced item.. Ok looks aside, perhaps I can help a bit on the technological front for the engines of the 5 cars Retro named and perhaps that might helped him a bit:

1. Mit Lancer: Mit had ditched the fuel-saving GDi engines for this new facelift model. It's no secret among the Mit community that GDi engines require sulphur-free petrol which can be found in Japan but not here. Over extended peiod of usage with sulphur-leaded petrol will cause clogging in the engine system that contributes to many earlier 1.8 & 2.0 GDi Galants having idling problems on top of their already problematic GearBox (Now you know why GDi Galants are depreciating at 1.5/1.6L car's rate?) Currently it uses the GLXi engine which dates back to the design of Mit Lancer of '93. Basically this is an old engine in terms of technology but it is also a proven one. Proven becos they used it in Protons as well. Wira had been in production for the last 1 decade and so this engine really speaks for itself. FC around 12~13km/L. Ex-GDis managed 14~15km/L. Only problem is that Mit motor is in deep shit recently so whoever buys Mits have to take calculated risk that it dun collapse else they can forget about the resale value of the cars liao...

2. T. Vios: Touted by many motor magazines as the best all rounder in the compact car segment. Nominated as the compact car winner for both consecutive years for '03 and '04 by Wheels Magazine. Volume on the road speaks for itself. Uses the VVTi engine. Helps you save on the timing belt charges cos' that's no need to change. FC can goes up to 13~14km/L for Autogear in certain cases. Recent recall affected all batches of VIOS but problem doesn't lie in engine so out of this scope of discussion. Rumour has it that Altis will soon be withdrawn in favor of japanese corollas again due to the thin profit margin (Altis's profit margin is only ard 6k as compared to Vios's 10k) and high maintenance cost on the Distributor's side. Will Vios be affected as well? How true are the allegations? Only time will tell...

3. K. Cerato: Replacement for outgoing model Spectra which was recently labelled by English papers as the worst model to protect occupants in the event of a head-on collision. Uses Kia's DOHC 16V engine that pumps out 105 horses. Korean cars are already good drinkers (My friend drives a Rio1.3L(A), he gets only 10~11km/L); coupled them to a DOHC engines and you will never be amazed nor amused at how frequent you need to visit the kiosk. If you are looking for good FC, look elsewhere. However, at this kind of price for a 1.6L with reasonable amenities thrown in, Cerato may be a good steal afterall....

4. N. Sunny: Uses the improved OQ16DE engine with electronic engine throttle. Basically a facelifted model of the engine series used in this model that appear on the road after 1999. That time, Singaporeans were buying Sunny as fast as they clear Toyotas off the shelf nowadays... But in recent years many had been taken off the road. Resale value is not as good as people thought largely because of the huge numbers on the road and also FC was a huge disappointment. Many learnt through the hard way that factory specified FC does not equate to FC in reality. Either the engine is too weak or the car i too heavy. Either way, FC was never good with autogear-equipped sunnies; even with this improved engine. But I do know that current manual equipped sunnies can achieve FC of around 13~14km/L. But don't pin too much hope on Auto sunnies. They had always proven to be "better" drinkers than some of the Korean Cars. My Boss's sunny averages 8~9km/L. How he wished to trade in his Sunny for my City which averages 16km/L....

5. H.City: Comes in 2 variants. i-DSi or VTEC. FC or performance, choose your ride. VTEC equipped Citys had been claimed by some drivers to achieve 15km/L in the best case. Worst case is subjective as it is dependent on how many times you "kui" the VTEC valves. i-DSi equipped Citys are acclaimed by its maker to be the most Fuel efficient 1.5L saloon car and that record had yet to be beaten. My best personal experience with the FC: 18.2km/L. I'm thinking of ditching my smiles card as I'm having problem clocking enuff points within a specific period...

And there you have it... the technical specs for the 5 cars that retro listed. Much of what I wrote is what I had experienced with. Owners of respective makes are welcomed to correct my mistakes. Let's learn from here. Cheers Wink

Theatre Of Dreams SG

cheers SeeTees, i think you’re one of the few objective analysts around. thx for the knowledge shared.

IntegraType-R SG

how about Honda Civic VTi-s?
COE dropped liao....quick buy now
u buying auto car? u got class 3A isit?

SeeTees SG

Hello Integra,

I just been to the showroom 2 weeks ago looking for a VTi-S. Well my advise is anyone out there who wants a VTi-S but on a budget u may like to hang on for a while more cos the entire line up of cars from KM may soon be from Thailand as well; minic-ing BM's strategy... But if you die die wan jap standards, perhaps its a good time to go in now. They got some ex stock on hand for you to register to hao-lian the new car to your relatives if you are willing to pen down your signature on that dotted line on the purchase form and on your cheque books...

Joe_Legal SG

Whoa! Very Happy Great post!
Infomative, candid and a real good read! "you-pi, you-qi, you TLN"....haha Laughing
So, the Sunny only clocks 8~9km/L Shocked
Considering that it's a Jap 1.6L car and that it doesn't clock, like, sub-8 sec in a century sprint, that's not good ... No wonders owners are feeling the pinch!
So from the five, seems that the ones that you think are safer buys are the Mit Lancers and Citys...

Cheers! Wink

SeeTees SG

You flatter me Legal Joe,

Actually if you ask me among the 5 the safest and best buy among them all is still the VIOS. Y? I will explain later. Lets take a look at your choices.

The reason why M. Lancer looks like a good buy is most probably due to its engine and reasonably good looks. 1.6L MPI(Multi Point Injection) 16V engine. Mated to a CVT gearbox, you get smooth acceleration whenever on the go. However, one thing to note, I had tested the current facelifted Lancer. It is somewhat lethargic in response when I step on the gas. I compare this to my City's CVT and I can more or less conclude that Mit's CVT gearbox is indeed slower and more mundane in response. However, overall the Lancer is still a good buy becos of:

1. Competitive Pricing. You can't get anything else this cheap for a CVT equipped Jap made car.

2. Proven technology. Engine wise we had discussed. Gearbox wise, though slower in response, C&C salesguy claimed that the newer gearbox is less prone to breakdowns that are notoriously affliliated with CVT boxes.

3. It certainly is sportier and room for cosmestic modification are ample.

4. You get the same warranty backing from C&C irregardless of what's gonna happen to Mit Motor Japan within 3 years of your purchase....

The City looks like a good buy as well. But remember, that's from my own point of view. However if you really can bear with the gawky looks then for 60+k dough you are getting a platform:

1. that's equipped with cutting edge fuel saving i-DSi engine that is kinder on your wallet.

2. that's equally equipped with a honda's CVT gearbox that's more responsive to upslopes and downslopes situations; translating into gear efficiency which helps control fuel consumption.

3. that is exported back to Japan as Fit Aria; testifying the confidence in the quality of the car. In one of the world's highly competitive market where even your cellphone can't roam freely, we have a thai-built compact making out on its very own...

4. Seats arrangement that will take some years to convince other major players that this may well be the way to go for future saloon.

However if you ask me again, what could be the cons of getting a city then these are my concerns:

1. i-DSi engine is a relatively new engine. It first debut in the Jazz in 2002. It's only 2 years since then. Can it outlast our COE system without a recall by Honda is something that the industry will be watching...

2. The CVT gearbox is a gem but it may also be a time bomb. When EK series Civic first appear carrying this gearbox (then known as Honda MMT) there were complaints of belt snaps and that this gearbox cannot outlive its COE span. When the ES series Civic arrived in 2001 it was also carrying the CVT for the VTi and VTi-S series. A lot of the owners in the first batch of ES suffered inconvenience when the gearbox gave problem within the first year. Personally I had been to the used carmats and from the logbooks of the earlier ES (SDG,SDH,SDK,SDL) most that I had seen had some form of repair work done on the gearbox. Worst case was the replacement of the entire gearbox. Will the City's CVT gearbox repeat this unglamourous feat? Or will it proved that it's not another achillies heel of Honda? That, only time will tell...

I personally dun like the following if u ask me to choose VIOS:

1. I open up the bonnet and thai words stare right at me... I dun need a reminder that it comes from Thailand do I? Even the wordings underneath CITY's bonnet none are in Thai...

2. I can never and will never expect a credible "chunk" when I close the door... It's always the familiar bang that have me wonder if the insulating rubber gonna drop off or not...

3. 6x I go into BM showroom. 6x nobody bothers to entertain me... Being the best seller? Ok... But that means hanging up and sell? Well, not for me. Zero points for customer's confidence.

4. My friend "chu sin chia" on the same day as I am when I go get my City. He got himself a VIOS. He called me asking if he can request to change another VIOS. Reason? His SE trys to hadover his new VIOS to him with a big long scratch along the rear bumper... LIKE THAT ALSO CAN?

5. Volume speaks for itself yes. But too much of it means a lower resale value in the future. I voted myself out of this wagon...

6. Volume also means longer waits at the servicing center. I got my City serviced till the 30000 click mark recently. So far I did not wait >1.5 hrs for each servicing... Which would you choose if you were me?

So why is it that I felt that VIOS's a good buy? OK.

1. I have to admit that the VIOS is indeed a very accomplished all rounder. Thats what a Toyota's supposed to achieve. They are like jacks of all trades... They have no major strengths BUT they also have no significant weaknesses. Never mind if they are master of none. Singaporeans nowadays prefer jacks. Just like the economy, everything "bao-kau-liao" under one job scope...

2. The price of the VIOS is really unbeatable. It even outpriced some Korean makes that makes owning a Korean car economically unrealistic. It even makes you feel that that trip to the used carmart is totally idiotic and time wasting...

3. The number of Toyotas registered on the road for the last 3 years had increased dun know how many folds. I may be wrong and you may not be right but thousands of Toyota owners could not had signed blindly on the dotted line right?

4. Unlike the City, the VIOS uses proven engine and proven gearboxes. If something goes wrong with the VVTi engine, 29 million (corolla alone) owners worldwide will be standing side by side with you banging tables. You are never alone even if you decides to overturn tables...

5. 3 years/100,000km warranty. On par with the City while shaming some other makes that offer only 3 years / 60,000km coverage (some of you will know which agent i am refering to...)

6. Though developed in house by Toyota and not really thumping those bass into your ears as best as other I.C.E. systems can, at least its radio unit looks better than that of the Altis!

That's my verdict. As far as all rounder performance is concerned, the VIOS is undisputed champion. But if you are like me, pointing favourably towards FC and functionality and very particular on cust service and other little little things, the CITY is for you. Above are my 2c worth again... Wink

IntegraType-R SG

u r driving a VIOS isit?

SeeTees SG

Hello Integra,

No. I'm driving a City. I am not playing traitor to my fellow bros in SHC (City section). I am just being objective and looking from a general point of view with all factors considered from a buyer's point of view. The City aren't exactly jack of all trades... To many, it failed miserably in the looks department.

IntegraType-R SG

oic…..u mention city failed in the looks department…..exterior look is 1 thing if a buyer is going for look then its ok if he/she willing to spend…..many factors to consider like “am i going for the speed?” “am i going for the performance?” “am i on a investment?” etc…...

Theatre Of Dreams SG

SeeTees, does your profession require you to speak on a regular basis? haha i admire your great command of language that sways readers in awe, at least me. once again i commend you for your objectiveness.

btw just wanna ask, stock to stock, vios or city has better acceleration from stationary? ya i think that's the only performance aspect we can worthingly measure on sg roads.

well i do agree that city has disastrous looks, but i mean Only on stock. cos i have seen dolled up models which Do look quite great. bigger rims esp. just my opinion, one man's meat is another man's poison.

wetlips SG

it is hard to come by an objective person such as SeeTees nowadays... *salutes* Cool

imprezaWRXSTi22B SG

SeeTees, u r well-informed. however, the looks of the city is really subjective. pple usually either hate it or are neutral about it. and for those who can compromise looks for FC, kudos to them. i bet u r one of them. this is highly practical and realistic. but IMHO, spending 60k for something regarded as ugly isnt very wise if you do mind the looks. so unless buyers out there have the same mindset as SeeTees, please just choose the car u like. do not choose a car simply becos of the FC. its an important factor but not the only factor u should consider when buying a car. anyway, the city has this ugly design simply becos the well-meaning engineers and designers at Honda wanted cabin space and a large enough boot space for the car, hence resulting in the boot being so protruding and weird.

nOrmalbOi SG

weird is an understatement..

the vios in my house... is oni fed like once every fortnight... surely thats more than acceptable in any household...

w2k_83 SG

hmm I tot 3A tests only begins next year?
Civic VTI already out of his budget liao u still recommend VTI-S

SeeTees SG

Hello again Bro Integra,

With regards to your point. Yes I agree. Looks is just another factor. Pple may want other factors such as performance and speed. Perhaps decent performance is alright but I think very frequently people are very extreme and hardcore looking at the century sprint and the top speed which I personally feel is very unnecessary. Like I said, it is practically useless measuring top speed and pickup speed in a country where the fastest you can go is 90km/h; 100km/h the most as that is the limit in which the speed camera is still forgiving enough. Thot of finding somewhere secluded? Want to challenge SIA's Boeing 777 by racing down the back lane of Changi Airport parallel to T2 runway or try the Super Highway of Lim Chu Kang? Sure thing, no prob. You will be accompanied with our friends in white (TP). Somehow our friends, like those dancers in Indian MTVs, always seems to popped out of nowhere till its too late to notice them.... And nowadays they go high tech by hiding in the bushes aiming their infra at you... Well, they sure learnt a thing or two from SAF snipers... So all this measures, with the abundance of traffic light cameras islandwide, really makes speeding (or even trying to) a near-suicide affair in retaining that 5% extra NCB from the TP every year....

Ok bro T.O.D.,

No. I am an electrical engineer and my job does not require me to speak on a regular basis. And you flatter me again on that command of language... I got a D7 for my 'O's 13 years back... Ok to your question. According to manfacturer's figures, the VIOS(A) manages the century sprint in 11.8secs. The City i-DSi (A) manages in 11.4secs. So that makes the City the winner? Not quite yet... The city's strength lies in its low rev high torque characteristics. Thats why it is very suitable for daily city driving. But anything above this low rev limit you get a saturated linear response when you plot it on the graph. Eventually at speeds above 120km/h the VIOS will catch up with the City. But that may be dun know how many lamp posts down the road already... By then both cars should have stopped... Becos' our next nearest pedestrain-friendly traffic light says so... Winners and Losers all at the same time. So what's the point of comparing? 11.4 secs and 11.8 secs... Do these figures ring any bells in your ears? Sounds like your timing for the Shuttle Run in IPPT? Well, if you and me were to shuttle run and came in at these 2 respective timings do you think you can spot the difference? I doubt so... Y dun u save the energy for your IPPT instead? at least that 0.4 sec difference may earn you that xtra 100 bucks... So for those readers out there always asking and debating about which car is faster and which is not, it's time to put these to a stop... We will only end up burning petrol challenging each other on the roads and in turn filling up the coffers of the government when we visit the kiosks... That makes us the Ultimate LOSERS. Just like AvP's slogan: whoever WINS, we LOSE!

Ok bro Imprezewrxsti22b,

I accept your critics and yes buying a car FC should not be the overall deciding factor cos' its really a very subjective topic. Y I mentioned n emphasized it here is because Retroguy focused on 3 things in looking for a car: Looks, FC and Spaciousness. I had already elaborated on the consequences of buying a car judging by its looks. Now we can't do much about the spaciousness issue since it's pretty fixed for every car unless you want to include the Mercs Vito here... So that left FC that can be debated here. I appreciate that you can look from City's point of view that the humongous boot is wierd yet functional. Thank you on that non-baised view. I dun mean to say that ALL city owners can get by its looks. In fact many of us had moded or add rims/spoliers/kits to do up our car. It's really a matter of appreciating the inner beauty of things. Like a chinese saying: " Qing Ren Yen Li Chu Xi Shi" (In the eyes of the lover he/she sees the beauty of the other). My personal ride, though not heavily modified, is still retrofitted to look slightly better than stock Citys. Every car owner, just like parents to kids, wants the best for their cars... it's only natural and understandable that good looks is what everybody wants at the end of the day. Truly understandable...

imprezaWRXSTi22B SG

yeah in fact i saw many modded citys already. the trick is simply adding a decent bodykit and changing the wheels to sports rims.

mushigen SG

Whether it is IDSi or UDSi engine, I'll never get the City. Don't want to feel pek chek each time I look at it. A car is to be admired - Japanese marque notwithstanding - by its owner.

Some cars look ugly when viewed from the front but look good from the back (and vice versa). City looks ugly from all angles.

Of course, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.....

imprezaWRXSTi22B SG

haha. to each his own

Joe_Legal SG

So you're from SHC as well? Well, I wouldn't brand anyone a traitor for giving his views, esp on his possession. If you as the owner is OK with your ride, that's all that matters. Well, your brutal self-honesty is refreshing, Not a lot of car owners so willing admits that their car looks less then inspiring.

Do keep your views coming Wink

Cheers!

SeeTees SG

Yo jo,

Thank you for the compliments once again. I must really admit that I am a very practical person. I don't mind paying a slightly higher premium over something that doesn't look good at all from whatever angle but whatever the promises that the car impresses me with must be delivered. That's my buying principle. Somethings in Life are "ho kua bo ho chia" (Good to c; bad to eat). My nick in SHC/City is A&A. My slogan? Looks are superficial, People who judge by looks are shallow. That's y I chose the City... Wink Cheers to you too. I think I found an equally objective pal from SHC...

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