CPF Scheme

Communique07 SG

Deepak,

Strange, everytime i try to post a reply , it keeps going to back to the main page. So i'm jst copying & paste it to my earleir reply which is fully displayed above. - 9th Aug, &.42 PM

Fallacy in your reasoning, you shouldn't be advocating the curtailment of rights of others just because of afew cases. If someone uses a marker to vandalize the lift, does it mean you will ban markers in Singapore. If somebody uses a kitchen knife to kill someone, does it mean you will ban kitchen knives in Singapore. Likewise foreign ladies cheating old men out of their savings is what percentage of the entire population.

Do you understand the meaning of the term return on investment? FYI, the employer CPF contribution rate is not 13%, for private sector employees, it's either 14.5%, 10.5%, 7.5% or 5% depending on your age.

Let's face the facts, our existing wages will never have substantial increases, because government is always saturating the Singapore market with cheap foreign labour to suppress Singaporean wages, to them this would be regarded as competition.

Tolong lah, the curtailment of the CPF is not bcse of Old Hero & damsel in distress. The fundamental reason behind this is based on the 5 decades of Govt principle of self-reliance rather than on state reliance.

And if it means presevation of yr nest egg for yr retirement needs through legislation, then so be it. No happy write letter complain, no my pasar, i'm jst saying as it is.

The old hero & damsel are just examples of what can & hv happen, can there be other examples? sure. But the fundamental reason is based on the principle of self-reliance including retirement planning.

What kind of ROI formulae u use? Mine is very simple one, any layman can understand, not rocket science. 13% is quoted base on what TS had mentioned. But u re right, its a scale frm 14.5%, 10.5%, 7.5% or 5% depending on your age. So let's see if this make any sense:

Based on $ 2000 salary, 20% employee contribution = $ 400. ROI calculation based on for every $ 400 place in CPF by employee, how much does employer contribute.

Employer Contribution
14.5% = $ 290 10.5% = $210 7.5% = $150 5% = $100
ROI = 72% = 52% = 37% = 25%

In it simplest form, ROI here simple means for every $400 u place in CPF, or a bank for example, u get anything frm $ 100 - $ 290. This monthly amt is almost consistent & almost guaranteed as long as one is employed.

If u know of any other investements that yield almost consistent & monthly guaranteed returns pls share, but let's exclude madorf, ponzi scheme & loan sharking.

I think the issue on increasing wages is far more complex than jst removing foreigners. But lets' jst assume 2day, Goivt ban on all foreigners. Where are we gonna fidn the 5 - 8k construction workers in IR? Have we got the local talent pool readily available?

But let's assume we do, cost is gonna increase by at 30 - 60% for firms, if they don't make a decent profit, the only option is to retrench or wind-up. so we get another wave of unemployment.

The crux of the issue here for the Govt in my view is this:

1. How to create jobs which pay salaries that cover the basic cost of living. Just an egg, perhaps say between $1,500 - $ 2,500.

2.How to create a suffcient & consistent critical mass of such jobs.

3 How to ensure that locals get a higher chance fo hiring as compared to foreigners.

Frm what i've read over ST last week, they're focusing on industry automation/ innovation (to increase/maintain output reducing cost) & also to minimize over-reliance on cheap labour.

Simultaneosly, sent workers for upgrading to cope with the new automations. Certification to enhance value & salaries. Will this be enough or effective, or is it only good in theory, only time will tell, but at least they're nt sitting on it, & credit shld be given when credit is due.

So its a holistic approach, consdiering many variable components, we'll jst hv to see how this will evolve but i will be doubtful if we coudl solve this problem by a single stroke solutuon.

marcteng SG

huh? you can kill me, but please dun anyhow kill the pros, some are real pity ones.

what abt the real scums of society in singapore like murderers, thieves, fraudsters, drug peddlars etc? killing pros wont make a society peaceful de.

Communique07 SG

Deepak, my reply to yr last psot on 9th Aug 09, 11.43pm

Geez!

Do you even follow your own line of argument?

Originally posted by Communique07:

It all depends on how one sees it. I think frm a Govt perspective, their concern is what will happen if the elderly misuse the CPF money? Egg, if u've got a chap who gets enchanted by a beautiful lady who sucks his all his CPF money then what happens next?

Originally posted by deepak.c:

Originally posted by Communique07:

What happened to your employer CPF contribution of 13%?

Your calculation isn't even proper mathematical constructs, let alone rocket science.

Do you understand the meaning of the term "investment"?

Definition from Routledge Dictionary of Economics:

Investment:

1. An addition to the stock of capital goods in the public or private sector over a given period. Gross investment includes both this net investment and the replacement investment to keep the stock intact. Theories of the determination of the volume of investment include the ACCELERATOR PRINCIPLE and MARGINAL EFFICIENCY OF CAPITAL APPROACHES.

2. The purchase of a FINANCIAL asset.

Employer CPF contribution is just a statutory requirement. Say if tomorrow government waives the 20% requirement, then your so called erroneous ROI will be $290/ $0 = infinity, which is ludicrous. An investment would be something like shares, savings, fixed deposit, hedge fund, forex, gold, etc, a statutory requirement for an employer to pay you an amount based on your salary is NOT an investment. The amount paid by the employer is for the use of your 20% contribution.

Many investments can yield you higher rates of return than the pathetic few percentage points given by CPF interest. Insurance, diversified portfolio in any stock market with a investment horizon of 50 years.

Ermmm, who said anything about banning all the construction workers, they only have to banned jobs that Singaporeans are willing to do. Construction is one industry where the majority of Singaporeans shun, but not jobs like accountancy, information technology related industry, F&B, etc. Why do you see the government still allowing more foreigners to come into take those jobs? It's not like there are insufficient Singaporeans to take them up. Simple reason, they want to drive down the wages of these industry, because prices are always sticky downwards.

Obviously you are clueless, that's why you advocate lower wages from competing foreigners, just like the Singapore government. Have you ever wondered why are things from Switzerland, Denmark, Germany and France cost more than some stuff produced in Singapore? (e.g. Louis Vuitton, Hasselblad, Leica, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, etc) Do you see countries like Switzerland, Denmark, Germany and France having an immigration policy that increases the foreign immigrants to 50% of the total citizen population?

What critical mass are you talking about? You try to use bombastic terms like Return on Investment (ROI) and critical mass without knowledge of the terms. What are you trying to say?

"2.How to create a suffcient & consistent critical mass of such jobs."

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My Reply:

Yes, i do follow my line of argument, do you? Ok, It appears that certain selected sentences of mine have been chosen to support yr line of argument,(mainly, top portion, words in red.) However, if one looks at the entire context of my last post, it would be clear of what i was actually saying & what is being portrayed here.

So let me just highlight the salient pts & some pts u raised:

Curtailment on CPF (as mentioned by you)
This reason is based on the fundamental priciple of self-reliance rather than state reliance & that includes the preservation of your retirement funds through legislation. The elderly getting cheated by young girls of their money, if u notice as i have indicated are just"EGG" of what can & hv already happen but is not just limited to just these examples, naturally they could be other cheating cases but it doesn't change the fundamental reason which is based on self-reliance including financial planning.

Investment & ROI
Thank u for yr dictionary explaination on investment though i'm not very sure if an uncle/ auntie wld be able to appreciate it. I think investment means diff things to diff people bt would normally comprise of time or money or both.

There is no one clear defination of what investment or ROI means. It depends on who u're speaking with & since this subject of ROI concerns All Singaporeans, it has to be based on the simplest forn which i hv emphasized. So for some, lottery, toto, is also an ROI. Fixed deposits with min interest might be a ROI to an Auntie, but not to an investor. Rental yields frm property, nett profit frm business, these are all diff. examples of ROI.

As long, as it gives a certain % of return frm yr principal amt, then its a ROI as i hv stated in its simplest form.
So this same practice applies in the $ 2,000 salary, 20% - $ 400 employee contribution, & 13% employer contribution $ 260. So for every $ 400 in the CPF, a person gets $ 260 which is abt 65% ROI on his principle amt.

Yes, if the Govt scaps the 20% CPF requirement, this ROI will no longer be valid, which is why i've never said u can have ROI without CPF scheme in place.

In essence, its what u put in & what u get in return. If one wishes to argue that since its work & does not qualify then let's not forget, work in itself is an investment. Its an exchange of time for money which results in savings.
So in this case, u may hv bank savigns a s well as CPF savings with a ROI return of 65% frm yr employer bcause your investment is yr time.

Foreign workers in SG
You mentioned abt banning jobs for foreigners only in selected industires where Sporeans can work such as Accounting, IT & F & B, let me incldue retail. If u talk abt F & B, retail, & jst look thru the classifieds, u will notice there are lots of vacancies here open to PR/ Sporeans, but companies face one key problem, high staff turnover. They can't retain staff partly bcasue they can't pay high salaries, which is in turn related to cost structures.

So if u run a business,& u've got to pay more for a local & they don't stay, what wld u do? U either go burst, or u look for cost-effecitve solutions which is to hire cheaper staff & wld stay.

Let us not forget, its not the Govt who mandates the hiring fo foreign wokrers. Its the Private sector who does that, the govt jst acts a a regular who imposes a quota so as to ensure that locals are hired first.

In short, ot handle this situation, one needs to take a holistic approach as i hav mentioned in my last post, & the measures being taken. A simplistic solutuon wil. jst not work, as there so many variable components.

The entire esesence is - Jobs is related to comp profits, no profits equal to no companies, profits is affected by costs, costs are affected by local & foreign manpower among others, which is affected by automation/industrailiztion, training & certification & etc..

Is ROI & Critical Mass bombastic terms? i do not think so, such terms are quite frequently used in both personal investments, business planning, business presentations, annual reports, & M & A, etc...So if u really are sincere abt wanting to know how does critical mass appy in my earlier statement, i suggest perhaps u go through some of these sources on yr own .

Communique07 SG

Do you have comprehension problems?

My original statement:

Wait a second, I thought you said the CPF gives you a return on investment of 65%. Now you want a stranger to give you the 65%.

Since when did I say CPF pay you, I said CPF gives you a return of investment of 65%. Afterall you did claim that the 20% you pay into CPF pays you 65%. Your understanding of the term "investment" is extremely warped.

If the government (with it's deep pockets and fiat money) cannot afford risking bankruptcy to give you 65% on your so called return on investment, then I suppose your small time businessman can afford to give you a return on investment of 65%.

Let me jst pt this in simple terms. Ask anyone in SG if CPF pay 65%, & likely majority will say no. So there is really no substance in this argument abt me saying CPF pays 65%. Look thorugh the post lah,

its says by employer 13% - $ 260, If i based this purely on a ROI perspective, it means when i put $ 400, i get $ 260 return for nothin. Now that's abt 65% ROI on my investment.

That's notin complicated abt it & I think its quite self-explainatory...Time is money .

deepak.c SG

Deepak, my reply to yr last psot on 9th Aug 09, 11.43pm

Geez!

Do you even follow your own line of argument?

Originally posted by Communique07:

Originally posted by deepak.c:

Originally posted by Communique07:

What happened to your employer CPF contribution of 13%?

Your calculation isn't even proper mathematical constructs, let alone rocket science.

Do you understand the meaning of the term "investment"?

Definition from Routledge Dictionary of Economics:

Investment:

2. The purchase of a FINANCIAL asset.

What critical mass are you talking about? You try to use bombastic terms like Return on Investment (ROI) and critical mass without knowledge of the terms. What are you trying to say?

"2.How to create a suffcient & consistent critical mass of such jobs."

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My Reply:

So let me just highlight the salient pts & some pts u raised:

Yes, if the Govt scaps the 20% CPF requirement, this ROI will no longer be valid, which is why i've never said u can have ROI without CPF scheme in place.

So if u run a business,& u've got to pay more for a local & they don't stay, what wld u do? U either go burst, or u look for cost-effecitve solutions which is to hire cheaper staff & wld stay.

So let me just highlight the salient pts & some pts u raised:

First you tell me, "It all depends on how one sees it. I think frm a Govt perspective, their concern is what will happen if the elderly misuse the CPF money? Egg, if u've got a chap who gets enchanted by a beautiful lady who sucks his all his CPF money then what happens next?"

Now you sidetrack to another, can you please make up your mind which is it?

If the government is so concerned about self sustenance, then perhaps maybe they should totally banned smoking in Singapore, because smoking causes cancer, heart diseases and stroke, chances of a smoker being drained of all financial resources is extremely high. So why have they not banned smoking?

Yes, if the Govt scaps the 20% CPF requirement, this ROI will no longer be valid, which is why i've never said u can have ROI without CPF scheme in place.

What crap!!! Return on investment, like Return on Capital Employed, Return on Assets, Return on Equity are all technical terms, I don't think your aunties and uncles will even know the term. Wait a minute, are you one of those aunties and uncles? If you don't know the meaning of the term, don't use it blatantly and end up looking like an idiot. Your aunties and uncles will be using terms like winnings for 4D and not return on investment (ROI).

Since when does employer pay you the employer CPF contribution based on your employee CPF contribution? So if the government scrap the employee contribution of 20%, your formula is useless? Oh gimme a break, your formula is retarded, it's not even proper mathematical reasoning. Like I said, since when does the employer pay your 65% based on your employee contribution of 20%? A statutory requirement is NOT an investment!!! Hey maybe you can extrapolate your kind of reasoning to taxes too. You pay property taxes of $1,000, the government refunds you back $200 due to recessionary economy, you made a ROI of 20%.

So if u run a business,& u've got to pay more for a local & they don't stay, what wld u do? U either go burst, or u look for cost-effecitve solutions which is to hire cheaper staff & wld stay.

The reason why staff turnover are high is because the wages are low. Like charlize once said, if wages are already so low, the other factors of production must be too high that they can't manage the low labour cost. If you look back at the policies of the government, it's actually their policies that caused most of the factors of production on increase, land bidding exercises, high electricity charges, 7% GST, etc.

You should also apply your theory of higher wages on private retailers will cause them to go bust on the government, each Singapore Minister's salary is 4-5 times that of the US President, but they have not performed on par with the salary.

Quota on foreign workers? I tell you it's pure hogwash! Why? Singapore citizens are approximately 3 million, there are at least 1.5 million non-citizens in Singapore.

You still have not answered my questions below.

Please!!! I used to do actuarial science and worked as an auditor. In all my years, I have never come across any annual report that used ROI or the term investment like you do in here.

Lastly, you still have not explained your 12 worded sentence in red. What jobs are you referring to?

What critical mass are you talking about? You try to use bombastic terms like Return on Investment (ROI) and critical mass without knowledge of the terms. What are you trying to say?

"2.How to create a suffcient & consistent critical mass of such jobs."

deepak.c SG

Since when does your employer pay his contribution based on your employee's contribution? Since when? Since when is a statutory requirement considered an investment?

For the last time, the employer contribution to CPF is a statutory requirement, it is NOT the payment of interest for the use of the 20% employee CPF contribution. Even if the employee CPF contribution is paid to employees in cash, the employer will still have to pay the 14.5% contribution.

Your calculation of 65% ROI (return on investment) is just pure hogwash!!!

Cram SG

I think the employer's contribution can only be considererd part of your salary, the part that you don't get to take home, and not a return on investment.

angel7030 SG

CPF is a fund, not an investment...stupid!

Noahtay SG

CPF is a fund, not an investment...stupid!

angle pawn all

seyKai SG

CPF is a fund, not an investment...stupid!

clap clap clap

angel7030 SG

i hate to be praised......u all are suppose to be angry and challenge me so that i get energised, not praise me...game over liao.

Communique07 SG

So let me just highlight the salient pts & some pts u raised:

Now you sidetrack to another, can you please make up your mind which is it?

Yes, if the Govt scaps the 20% CPF requirement, this ROI will no longer be valid, which is why i've never said u can have ROI without CPF scheme in place.

So if u run a business,& u've got to pay more for a local & they don't stay, what wld u do? U either go burst, or u look for cost-effecitve solutions which is to hire cheaper staff & wld stay.

Quota on foreign workers? I tell you it's pure hogwash! Why? Singapore citizens are approximately 3 million, there are at least 1.5 million non-citizens in Singapore.

You still have not answered my questions below.

Please!!! I used to do actuarial science and worked as an auditor. In all my years, I have never come across any annual report that used ROI or the term investment like you do in here.

Lastly, you still have not explained your 12 worded sentence in red. What jobs are you referring to?

What critical mass are you talking about? You try to use bombastic terms like Return on Investment (ROI) and critical mass without knowledge of the terms. What are you trying to say?

"2.How to create a suffcient & consistent critical mass of such jobs."

o Yes, i do follow my line of argument, do you? Ok, It appears that certain selected sentences of mine have been chosen to support yr line of argument,(mainly, top portion, words in red.) However, if one looks at the entire context of my last post, it would be clear of what i was actually saying & what is being portrayed here.

So let me just highlight the salient pts & some pts u raised:

Now you sidetrack to another, can you please make up your mind which is it?

ANS: What is so difficult to understand here? Or should i have paraphrase it this way so that it can be very easily understood by others perhaps something like this:

"It all depends on how one sees it. I think frm a Govt perspective, their concern is what will happen if the elderly misuse the CPF money? (Definitely Followed By Another Separate Paragraph)

JUST AN EGG, (AND JUST AN EGG ONLY,) if u've got a chap who gets enchanted by a beautiful lady who sucks his all his CPF money then what happens next?"

ANS: I would go further to say, why not ban drinking as well since excessive consumption can be harmful to health too.
So there we have it, a country that now bans all previous smokers & drinkers from smoking & drinking.

What’s will happen next? I leave it to your own imagination.

Yes, if the Govt scaps the 20% CPF requirement, this ROI will no longer be valid, which is why i've never said u can have ROI without CPF scheme in place.

ANS: Are you taking about your own crab? Cause it certainly looks like it. The only person who is insisting on the “Definition” of ROI is you, not me, so it looks like you’re actually arguing with yourself here & going back & forth.

From my very first post, I had already mentioned, ROI in its SIMPLEST FORM, I have never said that this is the Definition of ROI or the ONLY form of ROI.

And in my latest post, I have already given examples of how ROI might be interpreted differently depending on the investment & the person.

Return of investment, might also be “time” as I mentioned above. We invest time (Job) in exchange for money, which results in savings both in the bank & our CPF. – That is also a form investment & return.

Just because you disagree with something does not mean it’s incorrect.

Ans: OMG! I think you have totally misunderstood what I have mentioned. You’re probably referring to this remark:

“Yes, if the Govt scaps the 20% CPF requirement, this ROI will no longer be valid, which is why i've never said u can have ROI without CPF scheme in place.”

What I actually meant when I said the 20% CPF requirement, I was actually referring to the “entire CPF scheme being scrapped” which is why you notice my last few lines says “without the CPF Scheme in place.”

So once we remove the CPF Scheme, this ROI concept & I re-emphasize again in its simplest form, can no longer be applied.

So if u run a business,& u've got to pay more for a local & they don't stay, what wld u do? U either go burst, or u look for cost-effecitve solutions which is to hire cheaper staff & wld stay.

Quota on foreign workers? I tell you it's pure hogwash! Why? Singapore citizens are approximately 3 million, there are at least 1.5 million non-citizens in Singapore.

You still have not answered my questions below.

ANS: Why don’t you answer the very questions that you ask of others first? Do you have the answers to the very questions you ask of others, or are you are just waiting for their replies? If you do, I suggest you answer your "own questions" first before asking that from others.

Please!!! I used to do actuarial science and worked as an auditor. In all my years, I have never come across any annual report that used ROI or the term investment like you do in here.

ANS: So what? Generally speaking, are you saying if you have not come across something, then it does not exist? Or only that your views hold true?

In any case, did I say my terms of ROI or Investment applied in the various sources such as Annual Reports or business planning etc?
Certainly not. I think you might be jumping to conclusions.

You claimed that ROI & Critical Mass were bombastic terms; I merely informed you they were common terms found in a variety of sources.

Lastly, you still have not explained your 12 worded sentence in red. What jobs are you referring to?

What critical mass are you talking about? You try to use bombastic terms like Return on Investment (ROI) and critical mass without knowledge of the terms. What are you trying to say?

"2.How to create a suffcient & consistent critical mass of such jobs."

ANS: And why don’t you share what comes into your mind? I’m sure you have your own views. Not that you owe me an answer & neither do i to you.

Communique07 SG

Since when does your employer pay his contribution based on your employee's contribution? Since when? Since when is a statutory requirement considered an investment?

Your calculation of 65% ROI (return on investment) is just pure hogwash!!!

Oh, come on! That’s a cheap short & you know it!

You keep repeating on the point I say on CPF pays 65% ROI return & now, employer contribution based on employee contribution.

As I have said earlier, ask anyone in SG, its common knowledge that CPF does not pay 65% ROI, & its also common knowledge that the amount of CPF contribution is pegged to your salary. Thus, the implied meaning would have never been this and your argument holds no weight !

I have already clearly indicated in the earlier post above, various examples of ROI including interest on fixed deposits, but it cannot simply be Restricted to “Textbook Answers.” ALL the time as it means different things to different people & situations. And please don’t forget I said in its SIMPLEST FORM, not a definition or the ONLY form!

You’re better off at saying that anything you disagree or don’t understand as Hogwash! That would be much more convenient!

trashbag SG

i hate to be praised......u all are suppose to be angry and challenge me so that i get energised, not praise me...game over liao.

I praise you for being a cheapskate prostitute

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