Israel hits Palestine again while West Cheers Them On

last SG · 2009-01-02T21:30:00+00:00

Surely it is not the case that the more impressive the kill ratio, the more guilty a side should be?The sites targeted were those that were storing or operat...

Jarhum SG

I remembered I argued that th initiator of this cycle of violence is ambigious, a chicken and egg issue. However, I would like to shed more light on this matter with relevence from new information obtained from my most recent research on the cause of this recent mindless round of violence

Most here assume that Hamas perpertrated this initial cycle of violence. However, Jimmy Carter, former U.S president a several centre-right Israeli think tanks have produced justifications contrary to this Israeli propaganda to justify its massacre of innocent women and children.

Allow me to quote:

"The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, whose December 31 report titled "Six Months of the Lull Arrangement Intelligence Report," confirmed that the June 19 truce was only "sporadically violated, and then not by Hamas but instead by ... "rogue terrorist organisations".

Instead, "the escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement" occurred after Israel killed six Hamas members on November 4 without provocation and then placed the entire Strip under an even more intensive siege the next day."

Moreover, a joint Tel Aviv- European University study affirms that Israeli terrorism is responsible for ending 79% of all ceasefires with its neighbour compared to 8% by Hamas or other Palestinians "terrorist" groups.

The Israeli PR machinery realised that this argument is losing credibility thus they have shifted their argument to the 'need' to stop Hamas smuggling of weapons through tunnels from Egypt.

Historian Avi Shalim of Oxford University asserts that Israel is responsible for breaking this ceasefire. He is among a number of Jewish intellectuals who have repeatedly claim and denounce Israeli initiation and acts of violence towards the Palestinians. Others include Meisheimer and Stephen Walt. No one is able to accuse these Jews of prejudice as they share the same roots as those perpertrating the carnage at this moment. Especially when Professor Avi Shalim served "loyally in the Israeli Air Force" in the mid 1960s.

The Israeli military and political elite are no less of a terrorist organization than Hamas, I iterate. The difference is the results of their terrorist activities which hugely favour Israel winning Hamas hands down.

I advise anyone who attempts to argue in favour of the Israeli carnage to employ proper and impartial substantiations when stating their claims.

This current Gaza massacre has the mainstream media lambasting and denouncing the Israeli acts. Remnants of its supporters should be construed as supporters of terrorism.

Jarhum SG

Wait.. are you trying to date me out ?

May I remind you dear Jarhum, the current war is between Gaza and Israel.

Not between Muslims and Jews.

If you cannot even get this simple fact right.. then there really is no reason for you to challenge me.

When you say ZIONIST.. are you talking about the JEWS or Israel ?

Do you really think I have no muslims friends ? I do.... plenty of them.

What about you Jarhum ? Who do you surround yourself with ?

I pride myself in dating smarter people than you and I am not about to contaminate that reputation of mine especially with Bimbos.

Never did I mention this war is between Muslims and Jews. In your attempt to accuse me, please, at the very least, take my statement out of context.

Zionism is a political movement. I take issue of a movement which adheres to beliefs entrenched in biblical connotations thousands of years ago and attempts to realise it through the massacre of innocents. Zionism in itself is a potent amalgamation of racism and religious fervour or extremism. And unfortunately, the adherents to Zionism hold key posts of the Israeli political elite, the AMERICAN administration. It is akin to Osama being the King of Saudi Arabia, Al-Zawhari being the PM of Britain and so on.

I am a proud Singaporean and I am proud of our multi-racial culture. Unfortunately, this harmony is less evident in America. I have numerous friends who are part of the Christian clergy, Imams, Buddhist Monks and Jewish academics.

jojobeach SG

I pride myself in dating smarter people than you and I am not about to contaminate that reputation of mine especially with Bimbos.

Never did I mention this war is between Muslims and Jews. In your attempt to accuse me, please, at the very least, take my statement out of context.

Is Zionism akin to Islamic Separatists movement ?

If you think the Jews living in Israel now are not entitled to their "Promised land". Where do you think they should go ? Back to Egypt before Moses lead them out from Pharaohs's slavery ?

When you say American.. you are refering to UNITED STATES of America in NORTH America .

May I also remind you that in USA.. the diversity of cultures and races are much more than just the big 4 in Singapore.

If you ever have the chance to travel USA.. you will know that your perception of USA being Zionist is severely handicapped.

Jarhum SG

Is Zionism akin to Islamic Separatists movement ?

If you think the Jews living in Israel now are not entitled to their "Promised land". Where do you think they should go ? Back to Egypt before Moses lead them out from Pharaohs's slavery ?

Actually, Zionism,ideologically, is very similar to numerous Muslim separatist movements.

According to Elizier Schweid diaspora contradicts a central tenet of Zionism. Your argument is flimsy, again based on prophecies. This order of contention can be used by Muslims and Christians likewise. Muslims may argue that Caliph Umar commanded Jerusalem in 637 or Christians may argue that their lord was born in Bethlehem and died in Jerusalem. I thought you mentioned that this is not about religion?

I agree Israel has the right to exist but absolutely wrong in expanding their territorial existance. The Arabs and Muslims have offered Israel full normalization of diplomatic ties and recognition to Israel in return to Israel returning to its pre 1967 boundaries which is undisputedly legitimate. Even, read, Hamas, Hizbullah and Iran agreed to this Arab Initiative. But Israel has politely declined.

I believe that this is the means for both parties to live peacefully side by side.

Thus, there are numerous Jews living all over the world but a central tenet of their political-religious doctrine requires them to relocate to Israel which may require Israel to engulf the territories of its neighbours.

Now, you tell me, whose ideology has sparked and flamed anarchy in the Middle East?

Herzog_Zwei SG

Actually, Zionism,ideologically, is very similar to numerous Muslim separatist movements.

I believe that this is the means for both parties to live peacefully side by side.

Now, you tell me, whose ideology has sparked and flamed anarchy in the Middle East?

Erm... Pan-Islamic ideaology is the main culprit of all problems in Middle East less Israel? Zionism idealogy is the main culprit of all problems in Israel and its surrounding regions?

Jarhum SG

Is Zionism akin to Islamic Separatists movement ?

If you think the Jews living in Israel now are not entitled to their "Promised land". Where do you think they should go ? Back to Egypt before Moses lead them out from Pharaohs's slavery ?

When you say American.. you are refering to UNITED STATES of America in NORTH America .

May I also remind you that in USA.. the diversity of cultures and races are much more than just the big 4 in Singapore.

If you ever have the chance to travel USA.. you will know that your perception of USA being Zionist is severely handicapped.

Yeah, I know that.

A wide diversity of cultures and races do not necessarily mean a more harmonious relationship between races. Singapore very rarely experience racial tensions and blatant acts of racism vis a vis America. Our Muslim women wearing the hijab do not fear having their scarf yanked off by racists. We do not publically taunt our darker skinned people.

You do not perceive Zionism as it is subtly entrenched in the political elite. Zionism is sublime. I have studied Zionism enough to know America is zealously Zionist at its upper echelons. You do not need to be very well read to know this fact.

I have travelled to America frequent enough. The common citizens are pretty much normal, you have got the good and bad apples as you find anywhere. However, an experience travelling there with a Sikh collegue was pretty traumatic. He had to strip his turban which is explicitly forbidden in his adherence to Sikhism. What was more humiliating he was strip search just because he had a big beard and wore a large turban.

Read David Dukes' writings to get a better picture.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Yeah, I know that.

Read David Dukes' writings to get a better picture.

Nope, Singapore did experience racist tensions before but the ISD clamped down hard on all agitators. US. of A is not zealously Zionist at its upper echelons but rather stauchly Christians who view that if Israel is gotten rid off first, then US of A is the next big target.

jojobeach SG

Yeah, I know that.

Read David Dukes' writings to get a better picture.

Any form of racism is a result of not understanding the cultures of others.

While you may insist that the airport securities should not have infringed on the religious rights of your Sikh friends... I'd like to remind you also that airport securities first priority is to make sure everyone onboard the plane are safe. They do not go through religious classes to understand all the taboos of global religion. And as a Sikh.. he is the minorities of minorities. Get what I mean ?

As a frequent traveller myself.. I also get random pat down and screened... and I doubt I look like a terrorist. Even a caucasian mother with a baby bottle of milk are told to either throw the liquids away or not take the plane.

Like many other travellers.. you do what you can to ensure a safe and uninterrupted travel. If I go to a Muslim country.. I don't walk around in my hot shorts.. or wear revealing clothings. It is a form of respect and also to ensure I comply with the general practise expected of an outsider.

So regarding the 1967 boundaries.. why do you think it is illegitimate ?

Just an after thought though... you know your sikh friend ? If he don't take off his turban... then is he willing to put his head through the X-ray machine ? No offence ah.. just trying to figure what would I do .. if I am the airport security.

Jarhum SG

Erm... Pan-Islamic ideaology is the main culprit of all problems in Middle East less Israel? Zionism idealogy is the main culprit of all problems in Israel and its surrounding regions?

Corruption and inadequancies of governance is the main cause of problems in Arab nations. They utilize and exaggerate the fear factor from suicide bombings to legitimize their hard rule. The main raison d etre for the existance of terrorist groups and its attacks on the goverments and kingdoms of the Arab countries is due to the harsh treatment received for voicing or writing against the state, rather than establishing a pan-islamic state. Like the JI which thrives of the leverage between various separatist movements such as MILF in Philippines, Laskar Jihad of Indo and Thai separatist movements to advance their personal, disparate causes of autonomy and retaliation against harsh persecution by their respective governments.

However, the stark similarity is derived from the existance of certain groups which aims to achieve a Pan Islamic state in the Middle East inclusive Israel such as Muslim Brotherhood.

On the other hand, Zionism aims to achieve a Jewish state ranging from modern Israel, to all of the Palestinian territories and Lebanon, large chunks of Syria, Jordan and Egypt as well as proportions of Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Turkey although the Israeli spokesman would deny this but admissible by rightist Israelis.

Antagonism among the Muslim groups also arises from their perception that their governments are facilitating the Zionist movements although this may be disputed.

Unfortunately, both entities desire the similar territories.

Jarhum SG

Any form of racism is a result of not understanding the cultures of others.

So regarding the 1967 boundaries.. why do you think it is illegitimate ?

Due respect could be given to individuals. I would, most certainly assume, that the United States have bomb detecting technology to scan through his covered head or at the very least, tell him to open up in a private area rather than parading his long lucious hair in full view of others. Moreover, this friend of mine is a visiting fellow of Harvard. And some of the airport officials were giggling at his humiliation.

I mentioned that pre 1967 boundaries are UNDISPUTEDLY LEGITIMATE. Post 1967 boundaries are disputedly illegitimate dependng on which side you want to sit in. Numerous territorial scholars have questioned the legitimacy of Israel's current borders. Jewish intellectuals such as Avi Shalim questioned the legitimacy of Israel's post 1967 expansion, asserting that it conflicts with international laws of geopolitics. Moreover, the peace offer to Israel was supported by numerous centre and leftists of the Knesset but the overwhelming influence of the rightist and Zionist extremists ensured that Israel not withdraw to its legitimate boundaries.

In this respect, its is arguable that Israel is forgoing the safety of its citizens in pursuit of its ideological endevours.

I stauchly believe that a withdrawing to pre 1967 Israel would guarantee Israel lasting peace and security as what many analysts have deduced. Israel knows this. However, Zionist ideology prevents them from withdrawing and not expanding its territories. Thus, this gives one a hunch that a major war in the Middle East becomes preemminent. This is my assertion.

American media is heavily biased towards the Israeli. for instance, When Israel attacks another, the pejorative used to describe the attack is either preemptive or defensive. Such writings is difficult to fathom. Absolute Impartiality is improbable, however, blatant prejudice insults one's mind.

jojobeach SG

In this respect, its is arguable that Israel is forgoing the safety of its citizens in pursuit of its ideological endevours.

And so.. over territorial dispute... Israel deserved to be wiped out ? This I cannot understand. Many countries disputes over territory, but we do not see rockets firing all over the place.

Is it true that HAMAS is backed by the leader of Iran ( both believed in the total elimination of Israel) ?

Jarhum SG

And so.. over territorial dispute... Israel deserved to be wiped out ? This I cannot understand. Many countries disputes over territory, but we do not see rockets firing all over the place.

Is it true that HAMAS is backed by the leader of Iran ( both believed in the total elimination of Israel) ?

It is obvious you have a huge problem with perceiving. I mentioned that Israel pre 1967 boundaries is undisputedly legitimate. Before 1967, Israel was a state. Which means that Israel has the right to exist. Hamas and Israel animosity is not mainly due to territory but the blockade on Gaza which prohibited food and essential supplies into Gaza and Israelis constant problems with adhering to a truce. You may want to read this in further detail in my previous post.

It depends on what you mean by 'backed'. In the generic sense of the word, you might as well say that Hamas is backed by Norway. Because Norway recognizes Hamas (although incurring the wrath of the U.S) as the legitimate authority of the Palestinian territories and has contacts with Hamas officials.

oldbreadstinks SG

This poetic quote seems terribly romantic but it is aimed to facilitate an uninterrupted territorial expansion of greater israel. At its rate of illegal territorial expansion, for its neighbours to disarm will be a great god send to the zionists. However, this quote professes double standards biased towards the Israelis. No country in their right mind would disable their miliatry capabilities in view of a belligerent neighbour at its doorstep

Thus, I would disagree with your statement.

However, you seem to be an ardent supported of Israeli terrorism in full view and knowledge that so many inocent lives have been lost.

Any support for the Israeli onslaught should be construed as support for terrorism and disregard for innocent lives.

if thats illegal territorial expansion whats legal? how many countries that are capable of being seen on a map got their land through means that would seem "legal" to you?

israelis view their actions as self defence. by claiming israel to be belligerent aren't you being biased against them? why should support for self defence in our eyes professes double standards biased towards the Israelis when you've clearly made a stand yourself?

oldbreadstinks SG

You call me a nincompoop..

Come on, I challenged you to a debate and you keep avoiding the challenge. A debate will prove who is the idiot. Once again, I challenge you to a debate in person. I will assume another avoidance of my challenge as an admission to defeat by you.

Would you engage me in an intellectual discourse?

debates never proved anything other then participants well armed with knowledge required for the debate. how intellectual can a debate be if the aim in mind is only to bombard each other with info while both sides are firmly entrenched in their own beliefs. plus the only times an idiot's proven to be one is the time the idiot accepts a challenge to a debate.

jojobeach SG

OK. My bad.. Let me rephrased " Why do you think POST 1967 boundaries is illegitimate" ? Israel fought the war in many fronts. If a conquered land must be returned to its previous owner.. then what is the point of the existence of Islamic Separatists ?

Do you think if HAMAS were to step down and not insist on holding on to power.. willl there be a blockade ?

Surely.. if your neighbour constantly tells you he's gonna wipe out your family.. are you still going to bother opening the door to let the mail man deliver his mail through your back yard ?

"Backed " in this case means financially supported by Iran to achieve the same cause.

So after the six day war.. is it also true that thousands of Jews living in neighbouring states gets persecuted and their properties confiscated ? Now , how is it that such atrocities are readily accepted but Palestinian cries foul when Gazans gets pounded by Israel ? Double standard maybe ?

Isn't it like saying it's ok for you to rape someone else's sister because she behaved badly.. but it's not ok for others to rape your sister because she's your sister ??

Jarhum SG

if thats illegal territorial expansion whats legal? how many countries that are capable of being seen on a map got their land through means that would seem "legal" to you?

Politics is about transforming illegality to legality. in one sense.However, Israel's continuous territorial expansion is not sanctioned by international law. If you argue that territorial expansion is justifiable through violence and illegal means, you shoud assert that retaliation is similarly condoned. But our purpose here is to promote peace and end this evil taking of innocent human lives.

However, I find it hard to link your statement of territorial expansion to self defence. You appear to claim that Israel defending themselves through territorial expansion which is a paradox. Expansion is an act of offence rather than defence.

Israel is a belligerent and its actions are acts of terrorism. Unfortunately facts may be construed as a prejudiced towards the disadvantaged party.

I do not particularly see your point. However, I do grasp your intention. The Israelis have killed innocent people intently as justified by numerous reports and sources from international bodies working from the war zone itself. Biasness and prejudice do not at all apply to accusing murderers of murdering.

As a matter of fact, self defence turns into offence when one purposefully attacks and murders innocent civilians. It is absolutely nonsensical for one to justify purposeful and disproportionate killings of innocent women and children as a need for self defence.

The Israeli elite should be tried for war crimes and genocide for its killings.

Anyways, I would like to ask you a question. What makes you support the Israeli stand that it is killing innocent Palestinians for self-defence?

oldbreadstinks SG

and I staunchly believe that a withdrawing to pre 1967 Israel would do nothing. i don't believe they would give it up and say "oh well since israel's already given up "

not when you still have people calling for the total removal of israel.

jojobeach SG

Israel is a belligerent and its actions are acts of terrorism. Unfortunately facts may be construed as a prejudiced towards the disadvantaged party.

The Israeli elite should be tried for war crimes and genocide for its killings.

Anyways, I would like to ask you a question. What makes you support the Israeli stand that it is killing innocent Palestinians for self-defence?

If only HAMAS don't fight like cowards.. the innocents will not be sacrificed.

Are you saying that if the Palestinian were to fight the war IN Israel.. the innocents will not be harmed ?

That Palestinian army are so noble and honorable that they will not touch NOR kill anyone in civilian clothings ???

That the women shall not be raped and children be left alone ?

The only way.. perhaps is Palestinian army carries no modern weapons. Perhaps this may be possible.

Jarhum SG

Do you think if HAMAS were to step down and not insist on holding on to power.. willl there be a blockade ?

Surely.. if your neighbour constantly tells you he's gonna wipe out your family.. are you still going to bother opening the door to let the mail man deliver his mail through your back yard ?

"Backed " in this case means financially supported by Iran to achieve the same cause.

Isn't it like saying it's ok for you to rape someone else's sister because she behaved badly.. but it's not ok for others to rape your sister because she's your sister ??

This is because U.N resolution 242 is crafted out of British ambiguiety. It leaves both the argument open. However, numerous academics have argued that post 1967 borders are illegitimate. Even so, Israel continue building settlements outside of its current boundaries. By saying so, does it legitimize any preemptive attack on Israel by its Arab neighbours or Iran? And Irans new capital will be Tel Aviv? International Law does not condone this.

Muslim separatists are not state actors.

Hamas is the legitimate elected government of Palestine. You have to understand that. FYI, it is Israel who started this war, not Hamas. Israel's genocide in Gaza will only produce more individuals who harbour extreme hate for itself. Even if Hamas do step down, trust me, more groups will form who will fight Israel.

If your entire family were brutally murdered, would you not make it your life goal to kill the murderers?

You have to understand that this war is not about Hamas. It is all about Israel. The Israeli elections are less than a month away, the IDF has to recuperate from its dignity lost during the 2006 hizbullah war and it sending a clear message to Obama. Note the Jewish distrust for your incoming President.

Jews were persecuted by vigilante groups and individuals rather by the state itself. However, the numbers were exagerrated as the extra space stole from the 6day war made room for settlements for these diapora Jews. Remember, diaspora is frowned upon by Zionism. Jews at the same time desired to migrate to their 'promised land'.

Double standards are practiced everywhere including your beloved country. China infringes on Tibet, America denounces China. When Israel massacres Gazans, it is for self defence. This entails a never ending argument.

Ahhh.. the shallow, obscure analogies again.

My point is if it were Hamas who goes into Tel Aviv and begin massacring its innocent civilians, I will most certainly denounce Hamas. I already have directed critisms at Hamas for intentionally killing 4 innocent civilians from its rocket fire. However, Israel deserves the lion's share of the criticms for intentionally killing more than 600 civilians, over 300 being children.

oldbreadstinks SG

Norway doesn't recognize the whole of hamas. its the military wing fighting and occupying in gaza now doesn't this mean they're not legitimate in norway's eyes?

if the current borders aren't legitimate in your views why would israel's pre 1967 boundaries be undisputedly legitimate when modern israel didn't exist at that point of time? because they were "backed"?

so if enough countries/people were to recognize israel's claims now should hamas give up fighting? join up with israel to be part of it?

« Previous Page Next Page »