All have equal chance in education

last SG · 2008-12-03T11:06:26+00:00

Ok, sorry then, Gedanken. I don't think I have grasped your main ideas. When I have more time away fr work, I'll read thru all the posts more thoroughly agai...

kilua SG

I REFER to the letter, 'It's about who can afford better tutors' (Nov 26), in which Ms Pamela Liu opined that students from well-to-do families would get into better secondary schools and questioned what would be left for bright but poorer students.

Ms Liu is wrong to assert that the Primary School Leaving Examination (PSLE) has 'evolved into an exam that divides the haves and have-nots among our 12-year-olds'. The top 5 per cent of students in the PSLE do not come only from a few schools with rich parents. In fact, they come from more than 95 per cent of our primary schools and across all socio-economic groups. In addition, over 2,000 students from 155 schools (or about 90 per cent of our primary schools) successfully obtained a place in participating secondary schools this year under the Direct School Admissions (DSA) exercise, based on their talents in different fields. These students likewise came from various socio-economic groups. The criteria each school uses in the selection of students under the DSA are made public on their websites.

In our schools, all students have access to enrichment activities, such as art, music and sports programmes, or overseas training, exposure trips and competitions.

Our school-based co-curricular programmes provide opportunities for all students to develop themselves in art, music and sports. Additional funding is also provided to help students, especially those from less well-off families, go on overseas exchanges.

The Ministry of Education strives to enable all students, regardless of their family background and circumstances, to achieve their full potential.

Jennifer Chan (Ms)
Director, Corporate Communications Division
Ministry of Education

Understand their logic now

1.The top 5 per cent of students in the PSLE do not come only from a few schools with rich parents.

2. In fact, they come from more than 95 per cent of our primary schools and across all socio-economic groups

Does 50% from well off family and 1 % from low income group means across all socio-economic groups?

Most importantly in the top 5% PSLE cohort, has the number of lower income group increased, stayed the same, or decreased?

It must be very impressive if the lower income group can do better or remain the same without the help of private tuition.

Gedanken SG

Obviously there's insufficient data in that letter to draw any firm conclusions. On the other hand, does tutoring the living daylights out of a kid produce better results? Can you turn Forest Gump into Albert Einstein?

kilua SG

Given 2 groups of motivated students,

One group from rich family and free access to competent teachers for private tuition,

the other from lower income group and no access to any private tuition.

Under Singapore's education system, which group would perform better?

Stevenson101 SG

It still comes down to good parenting, if the kid doesn't like learning tutors aren't going to help.

It would be rather funny if the number of lower income group in the top 5% PSLE cohort was increasing, so in order for a child to gain better grades he/she needs to be poor?

Stevenson101 SG

Given 2 groups of motivated students,

One group from rich family and free access to competent teachers for private tuition,

the other from lower income group and no access to any private tuition.

Under Singapore's education system, which group would perform better?

Those conditions aren't exactly fair, you're talking like Singapore's educational system is radically different from other countries'.

Under any educational system the high income group will have the advantage. But unlike say the US in which the rich and powerful can still push their poor performing children into top schools like Yale (eg: George W Bush), you're still going to need top PSLE grades to enter RI, RV, Hwa Chong..etc.

Gedanken SG

Given 2 groups of motivated students,

One group from rich family and free access to competent teachers for private tuition,

the other from lower income group and no access to any private tuition.

Under Singapore's education system, which group would perform better?

Neither.

Over here in Melbourne, I worked on a project that used census data (i.e. all schools, not just a representative sample) to assess the influence of various school characteristics on student results. This was done via structural equaltion modelling and the variables included factors such as private vs public schools, as well as application levels of best-practice teaching practices.

None of it made a difference.

The things that did come out of the modelling were that:

1) Teachers do not have the power to improve results, only to remove obstacles to reaching maximum potential performance
2) Effective teaching practices do not influence results (bearing in mind the caveat in the point above), but are effective in instilling an interest in learning in the students
3) If there is a predictor of results upon leaving the school, it is the students' performance at the time of entering the school - the high-performance schools' claim to fame is simply based on the quality of students it chooses to admit.

Stevenson101 SG

Not accurate, the top PSLE students have been coming from neighbourhood schools.

And the top schools don't really care how close you live, they can afford to want quality.

mrvictor SG

well, few things in life are fair and if people keeping ranting day and night about getting equal opportunities, an equal start and footing, an equal whatever...., we will never be able to achieve much as a society because people are so obsessed with their communist-like beliefs.

when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. you make the best out of what little or many opportunities you are given. the truly successful people in life are those who can harness their opportunities to the maximum despite the obstacles and circumstances and excel in whatever they do.

i mean, what can we do about the income gap and its influence on education? we can't possibly tax the rich even more and give all to the poor to reduce the income gap. the "have-nots" can simply study and work harder to make their dreams come true. even if this wealth problem is eradicated, i'm certainly sure that some people will start complaining about the intellect their children were born with compared to children who were born with hints of intellect and creativity.

yes, i do admit the richer have better chances of getting high grades, but that is on the assumption that they are willing to put in effort as well and apply what they learn in tuition to get aces in their examinations. i am just quite irritated at those people who keeping calling this unfair. there is nothing we can do about it, or should we ban tuition and fine those who hire private tutors?

kilua SG

Acknowledge the problem first. why hide the problem in "they come from more than 95 per cent of our primary schools and across all socio-economic groups" or "private tuition has no effect on grades"?

Gedanken SG

Acknowledge the problem first. why hide the problem in "they come from more than 95 per cent of our primary schools and across all socio-economic groups" or "private tuition has no effect on grades"?

You're assuming that there is a problem.

Stevenson101 SG

Hide what problems?

kilua SG

Hide what problems?

Err

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_305814.html

He pointed to the widening income gap in the country and the high salaries of Government leaders. He also finds it unfair how a disproportionate number of the academically successful come from higher-income families.

mrvictor SG

euphemisms are used to show impartiality and fairness in the decisions being made. if they said most top scorers come from better-to-do families, this would be discouraging for the have-nots. do, for example, does XXX government say we have XXX murders XXX burglaries in 2008. No. They tell a white lie, saying our country's crime rate has increased to moderate levels and we are trying to suppress it in any way possible. they do not reveal the entire truth as it might upset several factions of society and they might even lose popularity

fudgester SG

x2.

In the first place, it's up to the kids themselves. There's only so much that private tutors can do.

Speaking as a private tutor, I say this: I would far rather teach a motivated and hardworking kid for a pittance than teach a lazy and bo-chap kid for a load of dosh.

Why? Because in the end, if the kid is unmotivated and unwilling to learn, then there's nothing that a tutor can do to help him succeed.

Fair enough, ceteris paribus, a wealthy kid may end up doing better than one from a poor background. But once you take out the 'ceteris paribus' from my last sentence, the tables can be turned. A rich kid may be bo-chap with his studies because he's already rich, and a poor kid may be fired up by his poverty to succeed in life.

The reverse can be true as well, and a poor kid may be too demoralized by his poverty to succeed, whereas a rich kid would be fired up to succeed even more.

At the end of the day, who are we to punish anyone for being rich?

Gedanken SG

Err

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_305814.html

Glass houses, my friend. If you demand that Jennifer Chan provides precise data to back her claims, you cannot reasonably take Tan Kin Lian at his word, can you?

eagle SG

x2.

In the first place, it's up to the kids themselves. There's only so much that private tutors can do.

Speaking as a private tutor, I say this: I would far rather teach a motivated and hardworking kid for a pittance than teach a lazy and bo-chap kid for a load of dosh.

Why? Because in the end, if the kid is unmotivated and unwilling to learn, then there's nothing that a tutor can do to help him succeed.

The reverse can be true as well, and a poor kid may be too demoralized by his poverty to succeed, whereas a rich kid would be fired up to succeed even more.

At the end of the day, who are we to punish anyone for being rich?

I like to teach those students who scored Fs and Es, but are highly motivated and sufficiently hardworking enough to improve their scores.

There's no stupid or smart students; there's only hardworking/motivated students or the opposite. At least that's what I encounter so far; all have the ability to score well.

kilua SG

Neither.

None of it made a difference.

The things that did come out of the modelling were that:

If you have really done social science research before, there always two side to the story. I can bet a million dollars i can dig a research thats has the opposite conclusion to yours.

Stevenson101 SG

Err

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_305814.html

But the way you're saying is that wealth is the only prerequisite to having high grades.

But these higher income families can also mean that their parents are highly educated professionals and thus could instill better learning values into their children.

Meaning the children do better not neccesarily because they got more money for tutors but because their parents know how to nurture them better.

Gedanken SG

Can't say I agree with that, eagle. Motivated students will strive to achieve to the best of their potential, but that potential varies across individual students.

If the tests used to not cover the distribution of levels of potential, it is possible for all students to get the same score, i.e. a full score for tests that are too easy, or low scores for tests that are too difficult.

eagle SG

Can't say I agree with that, eagle. Motivated students will strive to achieve to the best of their potential, but that potential varies across individual students.

Therein lies the difference between A2, A1... or rather, grades ranging from 70 to 100.

I think that's where the potential varies.... :D

And the problem is that most students are not brought to their potential, and hence another reason why the grades vary so much...