All have equal chance in education

last SG · 2008-12-03T11:06:26+00:00

Ok, sorry then, Gedanken. I don't think I have grasped your main ideas. When I have more time away fr work, I'll read thru all the posts more thoroughly agai...

kilua SG

But the way you're saying is that wealth is the only prerequisite to having high grades.

But these higher income families can also mean that their parents are highly educated professionals and thus could instill better learning values into their children.

Meaning the children do better not neccesarily because they got more money for tutors but because their parents know how to nurture them better.

The quote was taken from Tan Kin lian. I think what he meant is the higher income has a disportionate chance of having high grades,maybe due to private resources. I do agree on most of what you say about good parenting.

Stevenson101 SG

If you have really done social science research before, there always two side to the story. I can bet a million dollars i can dig a research thats has the opposite conclusion to yours.

Dig it up, i'd like to see the other side of the argument.

Gedanken SG

If you have really done social science research before, there always two side to the story. I can bet a million dollars i can dig a research thats has the opposite conclusion to yours.

My charge-out rate to do this stuff is three grand a day, so yes, I think I know a thing or two about research. Your "two sides of a story" defence would apply if I picked a random sample and extrapolated it to the general population. The strength of the findings is that it is census data - we literally surveyed everybody, so there's no "two sides" to it.

mrvictor SG

well, few things in life are fair and if people keeping ranting day and night about getting equal opportunities, an equal start and footing, an equal whatever...., we will never be able to achieve much as a society because people are so obsessed with their communist-like beliefs.

when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. you make the best out of what little or many opportunities you are given. the truly successful people in life are those who can harness their opportunities to the maximum despite the obstacles and circumstances and excel in whatever they do.

i mean, what can we do about the income gap and its influence on education? we can't possibly tax the rich even more and give all to the poor to reduce the income gap. the "have-nots" can simply study and work harder to make their dreams come true. even if this wealth problem is eradicated, i'm certainly sure that some people will start complaining about the intellect their children were born with compared to children who were born with hints of intellect and creativity.

yes, i do admit the richer have better chances of getting high grades, but that is on the assumption that they are willing to put in effort as well and apply what they learn in tuition to get aces in their examinations. i am just quite irritated at those people who keeping calling this unfair. there is nothing we can do about it, or should we ban tuition and fine those who hire private tutors?

read my above argument. i think that settles the whole problem and i agree that a poor but motivated student can do much better than a lazy rich student.

Gedanken SG

Therein lies the difference between A2, A1... or rather, grades ranging from 70 to 100.

I think that's where the potential varies.... :D

And the problem is that most students are not brought to their potential, and hence another reason why the grades vary so much...

Well eagle, in the study that I mentioned above, one of the findings is that teachers do need to remove obstacles to learning. An example of such obstacles is poor class discipline, which prevents students from focussing.

And yes, properly constructed exams do test the entire gamut of ability levels. That said, to do so, you'd need a pretty long test to cover those levels. My doctoral thesis was on the use of adaptive testing (like what the SAT or ASVAB use) to do the same job with fewer questions, and we actually managed to cut the exam lengths down by 80% - it's a complex and expensive process, though.

kilua SG

read my above argument. i think that settles the whole problem and i agree that a poor but motivated student can do much better than a lazy rich student.

pardon me, but if the lower income has declining percentage in the top 5%, is it due to the increasing laziness?

eagle SG

I focus mainly on Os and As levels where the exams are not at all very properly constructed

Furthermore, poor class discipline happens frequently when classes get big. Eg in Sg, there are 30 to 40 students per class.
There's a trend in the group tuition market to cap at around 6 to 8 students per class. Nothing more than that.

That should explain myself I guess

Thanks for your info :D

mrvictor SG

pardon me, but if the lower income has declining percentage in the top 5%, is it due to the increasing laziness?

more poor students are working harder. however, there is an even greater proportion of rich working even harder. it is just like if you work hard, there is a greater chance for you to enter say, harvard. however, as there are even more people doing better than you, you are deprived of this chance.

kilua SG

I hope you didnt mean how George W bush got into Yale.

AndrewPKYap SG

What I really hate about the education system in Singapore is the arrogant coercion of the students to conform to somebody's / some group's delusions.

Sure Math and Science is good, for example, but what people need are basic concepts since they are not going to be scientists and or mathematicians.

Yet there is so much coercion that the students do well in these two subjects to a very high level or they suffer the panalties, obvious or subtle.

You can be top student in art but you wil be spending all your time studying math and science, (and maybe second language) or else!

Stevenson101 SG

I hope you didnt mean how George W bush got into Yale.

That is the difference in the educational systems. The primary schools are all under the Ministry of Education, while Yale is privately owned.

Whether you can get into RI, RV and Hwa Chong is your PSLE results, no matter what sort of background you have. So rich or poor you still get access to it if you worked hard enough.

cathykitty SG

i tink all the younger generation of pple in singapore have the chance to have a generally gd education. for myself, i am fr a low-income family… but still managed to get thru the system and do pretty well…

“equal” chances to an education… i can’t dispute that. but nt everyone has an “equal” chance to be the best tt they can be… i really believe tt there is a disparity in singapore in terms of how much we can achieve apart fr the basics, which nowadays is majority up to poly or jc and uni…

to take a specific example… in terms of getting scholarships… interviewers are usually looking for a certain kind of answers… chances are, kids fr lower income families who are not well educated will lose out to someone fr a better family backgrd, who has the resources and the knowledge to tell their kids what to say or do during the interview…

that’s why… it’s unfortunate that the scholarships here seem to go to the pple fr families who dun need them.

also, in terms of which schools they can go to… tho my grades were gd enough for a so-called “sap” school then, i had to pick a govt school tt did nt have certain programmes cos i was afraid tt i wld nt be able to get the bursaries to afford the expensive independent school fees… (u forgot abt the school fees, stevenson101)

we can argue tt what we do is make the best of what we have in life… but no matter how motivated the kids are, when those fr poorer families have to make choices like tt… it will have an impact on their future life… and certainly their careers… (considering the alma mater connection in getting jobs) wld tt still be considered equal opportunities for all?

it’s nt really abt gd parenting too. if parents dun have the right financial resources or a high educational backgrd, there will be limitations to how much they can help…

i tink MOE shld make more resources available to help those kids who fall into the lower-income bracket…

i dun deny tt there are kids fr poorer families who have done v well… but there are just as many of them who can do even better, but have somehow fallen back along the way… due to the financial constraints… and the opportunities tt have passed them by in favour of those kids who speak better n are fr wealthier familes…

Stevenson101 SG

What I really hate about the education system in Singapore is the arrogant coercion of the students to conform to somebody's / some group's delusions.

Sure Math and Science is good, for example, but what people need are basic concepts since they are not going to be scientists and or mathematicians.

Yet there is so much coercion that the students do well in these two subjects to a very high level or they suffer the panalties, obvious or subtle.

You can be top student in art but you wil be spending all your time studying math and science, (and maybe second language) or else!

And...andrew comes to hijack this thread.

I don't see why you would call it delusions. From Singapore's independence we need a lot more engineers than we do artists. Artists only have value when the society is well to do.

And right now, the system is being slowly geared to promoting the arts as well.

I know, because i work in the creative industry.

kilua SG

That is the difference in the educational systems. The primary schools are all under the Ministry of Education, while Yale is privately owned.

Whether you can get into RI, RV and Hwa Chong is your PSLE results, no matter what sort of background you have. So rich or poor you still get access to it if you worked hard enough.

i do agree that those who got good results most did worked hard. But have you ever considered this.

1. The grades to get into the local university has been higher and higher due to student getting better grades.( possibly due to rising private tuition) For example, 8-9 years back, BBC would have secured a place in NUS business but now the grade is AAA. Education is increasingly more competitve

2 In a highly competitive enviroment, every little advantage makes a big difference. Private tuition may make the difference BBC and AAA

AndrewPKYap SG

And...andrew comes to hijack this thread.

I don't see why you would call it delusions. From Singapore's independence we need a lot more engineers than we do artists. Artists only have value when the society is well to do.

And right now, the system is being slowly geared to promoting the arts as well.

I know, because i work in the creative industry.

I call it delusions because money isn't everything, when you have enough to cover the basic necessities, you can be happy and if you are not, you are under the influence of delusions...

Stevenson101 SG

i do agree that those who got good results most did work hard. But have you ever considered this.

1. The grades to get into the local university has been higher and higher due to student getting better grades.( possibly due the rising private tuition) 8-9 years back BBC would have secured a place in NUS business but now the grade is AAA

2.. As such, every little advantage makes a big difference. Private tuition may make the difference BBC and AAA given the same amount of hard work.

Then what do you suggest? Postive affirmative action like they do for the minority races in the USA?

From what i've read, it hasn't exactly been working very well either.

And wouldn't it be unfair to the students who just happened to be rich but didn't receive tuition to get their grades? Is the system going to punish them for being well to do? How much more fair would that be?

kilua SG

Then what do you suggest? Postive affirmative action like they do for the minority races in the USA?

From what i've read, it hasn't exactly been working very well either.

I am not for affirmative action too . i dont have clear solutions myself, but i would think its important to acknowledge the problem first. We sure could look into different countries and see how the playing field could be more even. Finland could be a good place to start with.

cathykitty SG

are the grades cut-off really AAA for NUS business school? where did this info come from? :/

kilua SG

are the grades cut-off really AAA for NUS business school? where did this info come from? :/

i met one NUS undergrad and she told me... Regardless, the entrance grades for the local universities has definitely been rising rapidly.

Stevenson101 SG

Well, i did had a Finnish colleague in my company.

But he went off to study Digipen because the embassy sponsored him $40,000 for a $70,000 course.

I'm not quite sure where Finland gets their money from, so i can't quite comment.

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