Free Hawaii!!!!

last SG · 2008-03-26T11:24:58+00:00

I am thinking of forming an independence movement for Pulau Ubin, I hope Fatum can support me.

Poh Ah Pak SG

I don't understand what is "selective interpretation".

So can you show me "unselective interpretation"?

Fatum SG

I don't understand what is "selective interpretation".

So can you show me "unselective interpretation"?

I'll show you an example from the website of a group closer to your heart .. the Singapore democrats ... a group whom you have quoted from, time and time again, for the threads you posted up on this forum ...

widespread abuse of religious freedom in China

Human rights are also violated in large and powerful countries like China, for instance, where to this day there are still concentration camps for alleged enemies of the regime or simply for people who think differently. It makes me very uneasy that democratic countries—without having any real evidence of a change in China’s governing policies—are even thinking about lifting the embargo on weapons to that country that was imposed after the massacre of free-thinking young people in Tianamen Square in Beijing and the lifting of which would mean new dangers for the democratic government in Taiwan.

http://www.singaporedemocrat.org/articleemperornoclothes.html

"In August 2003, five monks and an unidentified lay artist received sentences of 1 to 12 years' imprisonment for alleged separatist activities, including painting a Tibetan national flag, possessing pictures of the Dalai Lama, and distributing materials calling for Tibetan independence."

In January this year, AFP reported that Chinese police arrested a monk in Tibet for having a portrait of the Dalai Lama. Phuntsok Tsering, the chant master of Magar Dhargyeling Monastery, was arrested in December "on the charge of possessing a portrait of the Dalai Lama."

http://www.singaporedemocrat.org/yourletters1.html

Curious ... you seems to pay lip service to democratic ideals .. judging from the threads you started in this forum .... but hey ! .. just not for Tibet eh, don't you agree with the stance of the people you idolize ? .... free hawaii, free puerto rico, ... whose people are actually free to voice their dissatisfaction with their current statuses ... even free Singapore ! .... but just not free tibet eh ? ...

this is called selective interpretation .... I used to think it's due to racial chauvinism ... but I guess it's really due to confusion ....

well ... I must say ... that the supporters of China's actions in tibet here ... are keeping a strange bedfellow ....

Poh Ah Pak SG

So you only support Tibetan independence, is this a form of your "selective interpretation"?

Fatum SG

So you only support Tibetan independence, is this a form of your "selective interpretation"?

oh ... you have a brain ! ....

hahahahaha .... unlike you, I do not suffer from confusion of what I believe in ... I am in support of the underdog, the oppresed, people who face guns and bullets ... in this case, tibetans, and even the people in China too, who are underneath a controlled press and a filtered internet, who are being brainwashed from their official media.

back to you again ... is it abundantly clear, what is "selective interpretation"? ... I would suppose so .... since you were able ask me the same question ....

so now ... your turn ... what do you have to say of your "selective interpretation" ? .... why do you not support the tibetans in their struggle, but would support everyone else ? ... ethnic pride ? .... cultural chauvinism ? .... you have fobbed off the question across three threads now .... why would you support free hawaii, free puerto rico, even free Singapore, but not free Tibet ? are the people not worthy of your support ? ... or you simply didn't know ? ... didn't come across their articles ? ...

or you were too busy reading from xinhua and people's daily ? ... (ah, isn't it another comical irony to have you quoting from xinhua and people's daily and counterpunch and Singaporedemocrats at the same time ? ... that you'll say that singapore's mainstream media is not free, not credible ... but you appear to think that China's media certainly is ? .... )... is it, as you said, you choose what you like to believe in ? ...so, why then ? because you failed to see the contradictions between what you pretend to stand for ? ... ... don't avoid the question now .... three threads already ! ...

Poh Ah Pak SG

So which other independence movement do you support?

justdoit77 SG

is the violence perpetuated solely by the tibetans against the han chinese alone ? ....inspite of the pictures that I have posted ? ... or was the actions against the tibetans solely a reaction ? ...

do you truly reckon that a diversity of views is being alllowed out by the chinese authorities ? ... do you believe that the official chinese media's version of the story is the only version ? .... that it's the complete truth ? ...

I did point out my reasons for doubts to our friend idiotbutcherer here before .... looking at past experience, is there much grounds for me to completely taking in that version of the story ? ... I don't like to drag out the examples of official cover-ups and deceit from SARS to the food scares again ..... remember again, I pointed out that youtube is currently being banned in China ... together with BBC english service, and a filtered google search engine ... beijing friends and shanghai relatives confirmed the unavailability of the above ... and that journalists are currently being banned from tibet, save for a select group husbanded by the authorities that'll be allowed to interview "victims of tibetan rioters" to quote the chinese official ... that is the crux of the problem here ... what i find frightening, is that an entire people is being stoked up to a rabid nationalistic fervor while being systematically denied counter-view points .... it smells of the way the japanese society succumbed to fascism prior to WWII .....

I'll let you draw your own conclusions ....

When the rioters start the riot, attack innocent people and destroy the facilities, do you think that the police should do nothing?

I think diversity of views is allowed in China. But of coz their freedom of speech is not as good as what we enjoy in singapore. They are still in the progress. So is this the reason that you think the police shouldn't crack down the rioters and protect the victims?
It doesn't matter what is your view on SARS, we are now talking about the tibet riot. After seeing the videos at youtube and so many hyperlinks Poh Ah Pak has posted, you still think that the police shouldn't do anything? Alot of the contents mentioned above are provided by non-government individuals.

China government not only never advocate nationalist, they even discourage people from doing so. When Japan send navy ships to occupy Diao Yu island, and sink the ships from HK that attempt to disembark Diao Yu island, the China official media make it very low profile, and suppress the demonstration from people. When the US aeroplane knock down a china jet fighter, the government also never provoke the people to demonstrate. Instead, I can only see china nationals in singapore hold banner to demonstrate. Everytime when Japan officials visit the Yasukuni shrine, koreans will make a big hoo hah, burn japan flag, cut fingers and so on. Is China even one third close it? If china is a nationalist country, then I don't know what can we call Korea, Japan and most country in the world.

Seriously I don't know why you are so anti-china, but can you pls think about those being attacked by the rioters. Are they not human?

justdoit77 SG

Police arrested people who gathered to protest peacefully. Even deliberately falsely accusing them of attacking the police to smear them.

So after seeing so many vehicles and buildings being set fire and destroyed, your conclusion is this is done by police to smear the "peaceful" demonstration?

Fatum SG

would you like to be reminded of the anti-japanese riots in shanghai in 2005 ? ... would you like to search for such videos on youtube ? ... when japanese cars were overturned, japanese resturants vandalized ? ... ironic that these properties belonged mostly to other chinese eh ....... Are you supposing that there are no tibetan victims in this case ? .... that the series of riots were put down peacefully ? ... are you saying that only your videos were real, and my pictures faked ? ...

when you refer to the diaoyu island incidents, you were talking about the time when the two hong kong protesters fell into the sea and had to be rescued by the japanese coast guard ? And when were the chinese nationals holding banners to demonstrate in Singapore again ? ... I think this is something I'd be extremely interested to look into, since our goverment don't usually even allow SINGAPOREANS to demonstrate freely ... something our confused friend Poh Ah Pak would be happy to show you with the many threads of his in this forum .... I would like to put up a thread high-lighting this ....

And I am not talking about the SARs crisis either, i'm talking about the chinese official response on these incidents, which ranged from back-pedalling, to outright deceit, and these and other incidents lead not to doubt the chinese official line ... maybe you'd like to read what I wrote to idiotbutcherer over this ? ... cry wolf too many times, and people won't believe you ? ... when it was so blatantly clear that the official chinese line couldn't be believed from these past incidents, why should I believe them now ? ...

of course, ignoring again, the ironic fact that youtube access in China is currently being blocked right now ... you do realized that youtube is a channel that allows BOTH sides of the story to be aired ? ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GDPtw7lqAA

and there's the danger of trying to mould the foreign press to your liking, of course ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7315895.stm

About 30 monks shouted pro-Tibetan slogans and defended the Dalai Lama as journalists toured the Jokhang Temple, the visiting reporters said.

China has accused the Dalai Lama of masterminding the protests.

But US President George W Bush has urged Beijing to begin dialogue with Tibet's exiled spiritual leader.

Foreign journalists were expelled from Tibet at the height of the unrest, but on Wednesday China allowed a group of about two dozen reporters into Lhasa for a three-day escorted visit. The BBC's request to be included in the group was turned down.

The monks' protest came as they toured the Jokhang Temple - one of Tibet's holiest shrines.

One monk shouted "Tibet is not free, Tibet is not free" before he started to cry, an AP journalist at the scene, Charles Hutzler, reported.

Another monk said the rioting on 14 March "had nothing to do with the Dalai Lama".

The monks said they had not been allowed to leave the temple since the rioting.

Government handlers told the journalists to leave and tried to pull them away, the reporter said.

Later, the area around the Jokhang Temple was sealed off by riot police.

A reporter for the London-based Financial Times, meanwhile, said that the Tibetan quarter of the city resembled a war zone, with burnt-out buildings, shuttered businesses and groups of soldiers on every corner.

"The smell of burning buildings still hangs in the air nearly two weeks after violent rioting swept through the old Tibetan quarter of Lhasa," the Financial Times's Geoff Dyer reported.

The rioting appeared to have been more prolonged and destructive than previously thought, he wrote.

Charles Hutzler described to the BBC a city divided.

"In sort of the more recently built up, very Chinese part of Lhasa, life seems to be going on fairly normally... But in the older, Tibetan section of the town and the blocks leading to it we could see the remains of burnt-out buildings.

"It certainly seems like a damaged city, and I mean not just physically but psychically as well," he added.

The reporters said there was a heavy security presence in the Tibetan quarter with squads of police and soldiers on every corner.

But in the new town, they described life as returning to a semblance of normality with shops and restaurants busy with customers.

Curiously, I never knew there's a Tibetan quarter and a Chinese quarter in the city .... I wonder if the average tourist would be able to make such a distinction too eh ...

Uncle Ver SG SG

Then again tourists and all the Western media says that Singapore is a clean (as if one can eat off the floor) and efficient place, without commenting on the dirty areas of Singapore and the one party state rule. Funny how all the focus is on Chinese chauvinism is on China and not Singapore.

Both the Western media and the Communist Party of China have their agendas to sell. There is a big difference being anti CCP.

"Freeing Tibet" would entail an independent Tibet with a head of state not elected by the people and NO seperation between church and state. IS THAT DEMOCRACY TOO?

Fatum can move to France or boycott the Olympics in protest.

drawer SG

No one should suffer under Albino Capitalist Pigs ruling!!!! Texas, Alaska and Guam should declare independence from Capitalist USA.

Fuk the Capitalist Pigs!!!!

Actually,from what i know,Capitalist policy is what most countries are practising today.While Communism,Socialism and dictatorial ruling styles,are diminishing with each day passingby.

Poh Ah Pak SG

Actually,from what i know,Capitalist policy is what most countries are practising today.While Communism,Socialism and dictatorial ruling styles,are diminishing with each day passingby.

See:

http://real-world-news.org/bk-quigley/02.html#5

http://real-world-news.org/bk-quigley/08.html

Uncle Ver SG SG

The recent troubles in Tibet are a replay of events that happened two decades ago. On Oct. 1, 1987, Buddhist monks were demonstrating peacefully at the Barkor -- the famous market street around the central cathedral in Lhasa -- when police began beating and arresting them. To ordinary Tibetans, who view monks as "treasures," the sight was intolerable -- not only in itself, but because it stimulated unpleasant memories that Tibetan Buddhists had been harboring for years.

A few angry young men then began throwing stones at the Barkor police station. More and more joined, and then they set fires, overturned cars and began shouting "Independence for Tibet!" This is almost exactly what we saw in Lhasa two weeks ago.

The fundamental cause of these recurrent events is a painful dilemma that lives inside the minds of Tibetan monks. When the Chinese government demands that they denounce their spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, monks are forced to choose between obeying, which violates their deepest spiritual convictions, and resisting, which can lead to loss of government registry and physical expulsion from monasteries.

From time to time monks have used peaceful demonstrations to express their anguish. When they have done this, an insecure Chinese government, bent on "annihilating unstable elements" in the "emergent stage," has reacted with violent repression. This, in turn, triggers violence from Tibetans.

In recent decades, the Chinese government's policy for pacifying Tibet has been to combine the allure of economic development on the one hand with the threat of force on the other. Experience has shown that this approach does not work.

The most efficient route to peace in Tibet is through the Dalai Lama, whose return to Tibet would immediately alleviate a number of problems. Much of the current ill will, after all, is a direct result of the Chinese government's verbal attacks on the Dalai Lama, who, for Tibetan monks, has an incomparably lofty status. To demand that monks denounce him is about as practical as asking that they vilify their own parents.

It should be no surprise that beatings of monks and closings of monasteries naturally stimulate civil unrest, or that civil unrest, spawned in this way, can turn violent.

Why aren't these simple truths more obvious? Phuntsog Wanggyal, a Tibetan now retired in Beijing who for years was a leading Communist official in Tibet, has observed that a doctrine of "anti-splittism" has taken root among Chinese government officials who deal with religion and minority affairs, both in central offices in Beijing and in Tibet. Having invested their careers in anti-splittism, these people cannot admit that the idea is mistaken without losing face and, they fear, losing their own power and position as well.

Their ready-made tag for everything that goes wrong is "hostile foreign forces" -- an enemy that justifies any kind of harsh or unreasoning repression. When repeated endlessly, anti-splittism, although originally vacuous, does take on a kind of solidity. Careers are made in it, and challenging it becomes impossible.

I am a supporter of the Dalai Lama's "middle way," meaning autonomy for Tibet in all matters except foreign affairs and national defense. This arrangement eventually would have to mean that Tibetan people select their own leaders -- and that would be a major change from the way things are now. Tibet is called an "autonomous region," but in fact its officials are all named by Beijing, and are all tightly focused on their own personal interests and the interests of the Communist Party. Tibetans can clearly see the difference between this kind of government and self-rule, and there is no way that they will support bogus autonomy.

It follows -- even if this is a tall order -- that the ultimate solution to the Tibet problem must be democratization of the Chinese political system itself. True autonomy cannot come any other way.

It is time for the Chinese government to take stock of why its long-term strategy in Tibet has not worked, and to try something else. The old problems remain, and they are sure to continue, perhaps in places like the "Uighur Autonomous Region" of Xinjiang, if a more sensible approach is not attempted.

Mr. Wang, a Beijing-based writer, was the organizer of the recent 12-point statement on Tibet by 30 Chinese intellectuals. This article was translated from the Chinese by Princeton University Prof. Perry Link."

justdoit77 SG

There is indeed anti-japanese demonstration in China. Though mainland china has the highest number of casuaties and sex slaves victims, but the demonstration are mostly done in Korea and HK, I should be surprised that why those in China are so quiet. And now you are saying that they are nationalist?

For the diao yu island, yes, the japanese navy ship sink their boat first, causing one of them to drown. Can you remember that? If this happen to country like Korea, Malaysia, Russia, do you think their government and the people will be as controlled as China. Go and check more on internet pls.

You are now using the SARS as your basis to justify the anti-china media. Despite Poh Ah Pak, idiotbutcherer efforts to point out the western media intention to blackwash China thru video editing and making fake news.
Put yourself in their shoes, if someone paste your face in a sex video and distribute in your company, how will you feel?

So after seeing so many vehicles, ambulance, shops, schools, buildings being set fire and destroyed, people being attacked, your conclusion is this is done by police to smear the "peaceful" demonstration?
It is confirmed that the riot, the destruction is done by the separatists, not the police. No need to argue on this. Even our pro-US singapore government has also mentioned that they support China's action on the tibet riot. Likewise when the singapore government want to capture those who attempt to bombblast Yishun MRT, no country object this decision.

justdoit77 SG

Actually,from what i know,Capitalist policy is what most countries are practising today.While Communism,Socialism and dictatorial ruling styles,are diminishing with each day passingby.

ah.... do you know that China is also practicing capitalism now?
They also have casino, stock market and all those capitalism stuffs that we have.

drawer SG

To be frankly speaking,i also dont like Westerners n Americans racist attitude.Somehow,they always look down on us Asians(perhaps they know we are a threat to them),and apply double standards on us.

BUT,that doesnt mean they dont have any good points for us to learn.Their political systems prove to be very useful to us and prevent autocracy politics from arising.That is something we have to learn from them.

drawer SG

ah.... do you know that China is also practicing capitalism now?
They also have casino, stock market and all those capitalism stuffs that we have.

Their Casino only restricted in Macau,overall,their views about modern economy n politics are still very conservative.And many a times,normal citizens dont have property security.If the Communist government want to tear down your house without compensation,they go ahead.[

The most ridiculous is their ignorance about human right.They can slaughter u just because u have different political view from Communism or going street protest.Like the Tiananmen and Funlungong incidents.Also,if your wife is found pregnant and you were found more than one child,your wife could be dragged to force an abortion during the middle of the night.

justdoit77 SG

To be frankly speaking,i also dont like Westerners n Americans racist attitude.Somehow,they always look down on us Asians(perhaps they know we are a threat to them),and apply double standards on us.

This I agree with you fully.
In fact, there were and are many in the china government who want to push for democracy. But they have to do it step by step, if they rush for it, their achievement will be undone.

Sometimes, we should look at things separately, political system is political system. Sovereignty is sovereignty. If we mix them, it will create unnecessary permutation which complicates things and delay the progress.
Those separatists always put the word independence and democracy together, after sometime, if one day the premier suggest to hold elections somewhere, some people can then label him as separatist.

Uncle Ver SG SG

I challenge the Straits Times to reproduce Mr Wang's article. Not only that but employ real journalists who can write as elegantly as Prof. Perry Link (Mr Wang's translator).

Jamie Zawinski SG

For the goons and schmucks,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_sovereignty_movement

The Hawaiian sovereignty movement consists of organizations and individuals seeking some form of sovereignty for Hawai'i. Generally, the movement's focus is on self-determination and self-governance for people of whole or part Native Hawaiian ancestry or, in some cases, for "Hawaiian nationals", without regard to race or ancestry.^{[citation
needed]} In some instances the focus also includes redress from the United States for the 1893 overthrow of Queen Lili'uokalani, and for what is seen as a prolonged military occupation beginning in 1898 with the annexation of the Republic of Hawaii to the United States, and continuing until the present day. The movement generally views both the overthrow and annexation as illegal, and holds the U.S. government responsible for these actions. The historical and legal basis for these claims is one of considerable dispute.^[1] While the groups that comprise the movement share these common concerns, their views on how such goals should be achieved vary greatly, ranging from the establishment of some form of "Nation within a Nation" government (similar to the government of some Indian tribes) such as proposed in the Akaka Bill, to reparations from the U.S. government for historical grievances and an end to American military presence, to outright independence from the United States.

Jamie Zawinski SG

curiously ... both the free puerto rico and free hawaii organization's websites ... are hosted in the United States Itself ...

Can you point out to me any examples of Free Tibetan websites hosted in China ? ....

There were public referendums in Quebec, and also public referendums THREE TIMES in puerto rico incidently ....

in which the independence movement were defeated in the polls .....

what rights, pray tell, do the tibetans enjoy in terms of self determination ? .... do you see any independence parties allowed within China, like in US soil ? ....

of course, perhaps you probably wouldn't count such a thing important and neccessary .... since you yourself, doesn't have the right to vote in your own country too ....

den point out to me any "Free Singapore" website hosted in Singapore

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