Concerning Emigration

last SG · 2008-01-22T17:52:38+00:00

I could say more but I shan't . I didn't misinterpreted you . Your statement is quite open to speculation.

Birkin_H SG

I've been reading several posts about how "bad" Singapore is and many would opt for emigration if they have a chance to.

Personally, I think the policies (political, economic or social) in Singapore do not have that many "push" factors in them. There are pros and cons everywhere. If we are optimistic, the GST in Singapore is comparatively low and so is the income tax. We have decent medical benefits and basic necessities available at reasonable cost. By reasonable, I mean that 90% of the population can afford transport, medical, food and housing.

If you think that the same goes to the citizens of the other developed countries, I'll say it isn't completely true. For instance, most citizens in Europe actually do not own their own homes unless they have inheritance from their parents or enough savings for it. What many average Europeans do is that they pay rental for their houses/apartments, and if they do not get enough inheritance or save enough to buy their own property, they actually have to pay rental all their lives. I mean...can you imagine still having to pay 400 - 800 Euro rent per month at the age of 75? The government does not "help" the citizens to plan in life.

Now even if an average working household in Europe is far-sighted enough to invest in their own homes at a young age, the state's employment (in)stability is also a factor that may discourage them from taking the risk. When you lose your job and aren't able to pay back your bank loan, your bank will automatically sell your house for you at a highly devalued price. The difference will be added to your debts.

Of course there are many negative aspects in Singapore. Although medical is affordable, I still prefer a national health insurance scheme where it forces citizens to pay for their health insurance on a monthly basis. So when they meet an accident or fall seriously ill, they get the necessary medical treatment almost for free. In that way, they needn't worry about their finances when they fall ill. I mean, sickness is something everyone will choose NOT to have, regardless of the cost. So I think every sick patient's medical cost should be subsidized through a health insurance scheme. To avoid misuse of the scheme, some European countries make the citizens bear an extremely small part of the cost whenever they seek medical help. Rationally, people would choose not to pay for completely unnecessary reason Wink

Although basic necessities are within reach to the majority of Singapore citizens, luxuries are many times harder to achieve in Singapore than in the western countries. I'm not even talking about luxuries like houses and automobiles here. The price-for-quality ridge (gradient) for many products in Singapore is extremely steep. You may find really cheap products in Singapore but to buy a product that is of a decent quality (and style), you pay a lot more in Singapore than you would have to pay in Europe or in the States. And due to our relatively lower pay and lower exchange rates, we have a very much lower purchasing power as compared to the other developed countries. Besides, International companies (I'm not even talking about designer brands) price their products pretty evenly worldwide. To put it simply, if a zara trench costs 120Euro in Europe (other than Spain heh), it'll most probably cost 240SGD in Singapore. However, while an engineer earns 4500SGD in Singapore, he'll most probably be earning 4500Euro in Europe. (The exchange rate is about 1Euro to 2.1SGD). Get what I mean? =/

Now, I feel that there are stronger push factors in Singapore aren't really the social, economic or political reasons. I find it justified when individuals emigrate to join their family overseas, for their career, or simply for a change in lifestyle.

Some married abroad or have families abroad. Some careers don't have a market in Singapore, or are simply just not encouraged here. And some people may also find the lifestyle in Singapore unsuitable for them. They also might not be able to excel in a typical Singaporean workplace/university but they are able to do much better when working with people of a different mentality and mindset or studying in a different environment.

Basically, migration is about what you want in life, and which country can provide the most suitable environment for you.

phil30k SG

Dear Birkin,

(sorry if this is disjointed, I didn't edit it)

I thought your post was very intelligent and asked the right questions. I'd like to add my point of view to this thread.

I agree that there are many "push factors" that contribute to emigration.

Once we've listed them, the next question would be their effect. Then how much of this can be managed and in what ways. Then we ask how much of this can or should be managed by the Government.

This is where we come to the crux of the matter.

People view relationships in many ways, as form of contracts or guided by morality or mandated by human nature, mandated by God etc. These views are fundamentally different however in Singapore we find one mindset dominates.

That is a person who volunteerily gives up his rights and freedoms to another does so in exchage for certain things, be it a standard of living etc. And that imposes a responsibility on the other party to fulfil this and a right for the person to demand these.

I find a lot of debate revolves on what we can realistically expect the Government to be responsible for in exchange for those rights and freedoms we have given up and whether these responsibilities have been fulfilled and how this social contract should be managed.

SpeedStar SG

This is by far, the most detailed summary about emigration. For those who think life will always be better or easier in developed countries like japan, europe or usa, think again. Eventually is what u want in life that determine whether u really need to relocate, cos when u r eventually there u might not even like it. Wink

maurizio13 SG

You know something, one will never know whether he likes it over there better or here. The only way to know is to try it out over there as permanent resident and decide for themselves. My friend who did a pharmaceutical degree in Australia, worked there for a 3 years and decided to call Australia home. She met her husband (Malaysian) there.

You will never know if something is suitable for you unless you try for yourself. Ignore what others tell you about how bad it is there and try it for yourself, only you can judge for yourself.

maurizio13 SG

You have considered the issue of high tax rate without considering the issue of higher pay for those countries. It's like comparing a country with high tax rates with Singaporean pay, which is an error. Western countries who have similar GDP per capita as Singapore, their wages for their workers are 3 to 5 times (in their own local currency) that of Singapore.

If a worker here gets SGD 943, a worker in a comparative country (say Finland) would get EUR 1,700 (SGD 3,570 @ EUR 1 = SGD 2.10).

Singapore:

44 hour work week @ 8.8 hours a day, say minimum wage of $5.00 (Macdonald's staff get less than that).

188.57 hours X SGD 5.00 X 12 months= SGD 11,316

After tax income (no income taxes) = SGD 943

========================================

New Zealand:

Same 44 hour week @ 8.8 hours a day, minimum wage for cafe workers is NZD 14.42.

188.57 hours X NZD 14.42 X 12 months = NZD 32,628

If the NZD 2,719 converted to SGD 2,963 (NZD 1 = SGD 1.09)

Tax rate = 19.5%

After tax income = NZD 26,265

http://www.emigratenz.org/Work.html

http://www.ird.govt.nz/how-to/taxrates-codes/itaxsalaryandwage-incometaxrates.html

Higher taxes does not necessarily mean disadvantages, because New Zealand has a higher salary base for it's citizens. Especially when they have better social service programs compared to here.

SpeedStar SG

Yap, I agree with u on this Wink

maurizio13 SG

If can adapt it's a higher quality of life for you and your family, if can't adapt the worse is come back to Singapore to compete with the foreign talents from India and China.

kramnave SG

They are everywhere man, not only SG Wink

maurizio13 SG

Maybe I should revert the same question asked of non gov supporters.

I am not disputing your claim, BUT........

Do you have proof that they are EVERYWHERE?

Maybe you can show me starting with Norway, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland & Switzerland.

Very Happy

charlize SG

I recall a year or two back, there was this report in the papers reporting that even secondary school kids had contemplated leaving the country next time when they grew up.

Now that's really sad. Laughing

will4 SG

It also included those JC or poly students.

kramnave SG

Never been to Scandinavia so i can't tell. Perhaps i used the wrong word. Perhaps i shouldn't use the word "Everywhere" since childish elements exists in erm everywhere. Ok, more often than not, they are where Singaporeans tend to migrate to (U.S, Britain, Australia, Canada, etc). One can call FTs here names but overseas you are a "chinese boy" or "Farking Asian" as well.

will4 SG

U should also take note that the locals migratted to other countries are talent. I have a colleuge in full time NS n he got an economics degree from'

Cornell university n came back to serve NS. After his BMT, he kena marked by our superior n he applied leave n never came back. The punishment he got is he is quite outspoken considering the fact that many Sporean studied in US are quite outspoken n smarter than those who studied here.

maurizio13 SG

Strange? You were the one who used EVERYWHERE. You have to be correct with your language, else who would understand you. US, Britain, Australia and Canada is not equivalent to EVERYWHERE.

Maybe you can show us a comparison of these countries?

Population vs immigrant ratio?

What is the percentage?

Laughing

kramnave SG

Your point being ? M13 was saying if cannot adapt overseas come back and compete with the indians and the chinese. What i'm saying is that these indians and chinese are "everywhere" or to put it better, are in the countries one might like to migrate to. Another point is, you view people with disdain for competing/"snatching jobs" and others might have the same view of you overseas. That is all to it.

kramnave SG

Refer what i posted to will, have no time to find such stats, if you have go find else take a holiday or stay there for a few yrs.

maurizio13 SG

The thing is, there is not as many PRC & Indians there as compared to here. There is a difference between competing with 10 PRCs and 1,000 PRCs.

I can't deny that there will be discrimination when we take away another country citizen's job. But a small minority immigrant population would not cause as much displeasure amongst the population as compared to 50% immigrant population. It should be fun when our population reaches 6 million, it's when immigrants + non local born citizens and local born citizens balance out, given our citizens now stand at around 3 million.

fishbuff SG

i have crossed that stage so it is no point for me to talk about it. what i need to focus on now is to build up my work here in australia.

just yesterday i met up with another sg friend in the shopping centre, together with him are his sisters, of 1 has settled here for the past 12 years and another 3 that are making plans to move to australia.

the local banking lady ask us why there is a sudden surge in singaporeans migrating to australia, which in 10 years ago, is virtually unheard of. Singaporeans are leaving in droves but the media and govt chose to be quiet about it. i guess we are all exploitable and expendable.

good luck to you all staying back in sg.

Poh Ah Pak SG

fishbuff, what do you like about Australia that Singapore does not have?

What attracted you to Australia and when did you get disillusioned about Singapore?

kramnave SG

I would suspect they have a lot of PRCs, Chinese etc and a whole group of other asians (Japanese, Koreans, Malaysians, Vietnamese, Pakistanis, hispanics etc). No specific racial targeting but Asians in general. Anyway, i was passing Geylang the other day and we really have a lot of FTs.....FLs actually...