Singapore gays allowed a step forward, but pushed two back

mhcampboy SG

all this petition thingy.... will the govt even care? Confused

LazerLordz SG

One thing's for sure.

The state of citizen advocacy and lobbying has improved a fair bit overnight.

mancha SG

*ahem*
Are homos deprived of their votes?
Heterosexuals can drive cars, homos cannot?
What right are you thinking of?

Don't be swayed by their "don't discriminate" ploy.
They have an perversion that they want to indulge in.

LazerLordz SG

Is two-timing, sleeping with multiple partners a crime under the Penal Code?

mhcampboy SG

heheh.. LHL say..... leave the penal code alone... Mr. Green

Gun SG

Not just the garment, the PEOPLE has spoken.

Rights comes with responsibility.

So far, what has occurred in other "liberal" society with regard to homo/lesbo issue is deeply worrying.

You have gay priests, gay marriages, gay bars, gay gangs/clubs, gay media and even gay soldiers.

Something indeed is very "wrong" not just from perspective of traditional human social behavior, but from a biological/evolutionary POV....

Is part of the side effects from climate change or increasing genetic defects due to industrialized pollution?

We don't see empires or historical events that was driven by gay-issue until the later 20th century.

googoomuck SG

The PAP decisions are guided by expediency rather than principles.

Just look at the method chosen to control the population of stray animals.

Culling is the preferred method while there are other more humane methods available.

mhcampboy SG

yah yah!!

i was talking to a bangla at town council once... i asked him... we chatted till a topic of his previous employment....

he was given the task to kill all strays!! Shocked

all the strays will be put in a room.. and the floor will produce electricity.... with a push of a button. Crying or Very sad

he cant take it anymore.. so he asked for transfer...even though as a cleaner...

sir sickolot II SG

i am in agreement with oxford mushroom that Singapore society in general does not accept the idea of gays and lesbians. Or at least, the public affection of same-sex couples. As such, I feel although the section is really a non issue ( since it is not enforced actively), I feel changes can be made to criminalise PDA of same sex, but let's not criminalise what they do in private. This is a protection of the welfare and rights of the public, and is in line with the current perspective of the population.

We have progressed pretty far, but laws are made to protect the rights of the people, and it is fair to respect the rights of the majority

seotiblizzard SG

Giga.
the law hates us wor.
Sad

LazerLordz SG

Go read up more on the hidden history of homosexuality.

Just because you don't hear of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The above is a classic case of someone taking things at face value and not reading enough alternative sources.

Gun SG

okay.

Name just one ancient civilization that prosper such practice under the legal/moral/religious acceptance. Greek? Romans? Babylonian? Egyptians? Mayans?

I am all ears.

LazerLordz SG

Greek and Chinese.

There's a lot of academic stuff that you can research, that illustrates the prevalence of these activities in these two civilisations, throughout different dynastic periods.

Just because it ain't known in the mainstream and by laymen does not mean it doesn't exist. So beware the broad assumptions made.

I'm not an expert on the Near East though.

wisefool83 SG

Ok, I'll fill in the Chinese part. The Chinese civilisation traditionally do not discriminate against homosexuality. A number of Emperors including Han Wu Di had official history records in which they engage in homosexual activities. The Chinese Idiom of Long Yang Zhi Pi or Ge Xiu Zhi Pi all derived from incident in which rulers engaged in homosexual activity. Homosexual activities were only seen as a problem if the ruler engage in it excessively, but that applies to heterosexual too. The above idioms were no doubt negative in their meanings, but were mean to criticise the rulers for over-doing it rather than just doing it.

Among the people, gay prostitues were common activities, if you read Dream of Red Chamber, you could see that boy prostitutes and occasional homosexual activities were common among the society. In fact, people don't tend to classify gay as a separate issue and most people who engage in homosexual activities see no meaning to the word gay. They are just largely Bi-Sexual as Xue Pan, Jia Bao Yu and most other male characters in the novel are. You might think that a novel is not a good source of reference, but it is rather the way which the novel was written in which the writer himself, do not seem to think that homosexuality was an issue that provided the clue to the society then.

Gay, rather than being "imported" from "demoralised" western society as often perceived was actually being "discriminalised" by western society. The current 377 code was a product of Victoria Era British penal code. The Chinese throughout their 5000 years of history had not even think of discriminating against homosexuality. They almost don't even differentiate it. Modern China's stand against homosexuality was also likely to be an import along with Marxism.

oxford mushroom SG

Not unless you do it like many homosexuals do...with other men Mr. Green

oxford mushroom SG

LHL's speech in parliament about sums up the sentiments of most Singaporeans and the decision taken is a right one. To their credit, even the WP is not supporting this repeal motion. Sylvia is smarter than many Opposition leaders ...she understands how the majority of Singaporeans feel about this issue and it is the majority's view that prevails at the ballot box. As I have said before and echoed by LHL, all that the gay community has done with this motion is to invite a backlash against them. They will find that there will be less room for them in future.

Homosexuals have been emboldened by the lattitude given to them so far. It's as the Chinese saying goes, 'de chun jing chi', give them an inch and they want a yard. The gay community has awakened the sleeping giant of the conservative majority who will now seek to oppose them and reduce whatever freedom they have been given.

LazerLordz SG

See, that's gender discrimination. No bones about it. No one condones it, yet it is not criminalised.

Oh, let's not forget that men are not protected from heterosexual outrage of modesty at this juncture as well.

However, the extra-territorial laws that apply to child sex tourism and terrorism should be applauded.

Fatum SG

Is this discrimination ? you bet your ass (no pun intended :lol Smile it is .....

why ? cos this is the attitude the majority of our society has towards homosexual activities, if you happen to swing for the other team, tough ... this is what democracy is about, the rule of the majority ... the majority decides on the norms and permissible boundaries of the society ....

there is no point referring to the attitudes of other societies in history to look for precedents .... once upon a time, an 80 years old man taking on a 14 years old girl as concubine in ancient china was not considered child abuse, it was considered the norm .... once upon a time, it was alright to keep slaves, once upon a time, widows were burnt at the funeral pyres of their husbands ... yada yada ... it's all been said before ... Rolling Eyes ... we have no problems discriminating against these practices, no ? ....

end of the story, it's been a good lesson for all .... especially those who agitates for certain liberties inherently incompatible with our conservative asian roots; we shouldn't and wouldn't swallow wholesale whatever is considered the norm in other societies ...

LazerLordz SG

Fatum,

The issue of "Conservative Asian roots" is merely a cage of normative values built to limit discourse. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming that just because we hail from a particular ethnic group, or geographical area, our values must always be fixed at a particular point in time.

The essence here is about consent and informed adult consent. Your example of an 80 year old man with a 14 year old concubine is definitely breaking the test of consent, and you're right that cultural norms did move on. So did slavery as well.

Don't forget women's lib too.

So there is no reason to believe that the space for people with different sexual orientation will not open up in the future. What they have is time..perhaps this is why those chest-thumping opponents feel so hard-up in this debate, because perhaps there is an innate fear that the proponents of repealing Section 377A will eventually win.

Having said that, if there's one current positive outcome, it's that the space for public debate and advocacy has been widened on both sides of the fence. Singaporeans are less likely to shy away from making their point known, and are willing to lobby for what they believe in.

And that, should be something we can all agree on.

Fatum SG

is that a cage ? ... or a societal framework ? ... all laws have to be viewed from the framework of a particular society, no ? ... you suppose, for example, the liberal attitudes of say, new york or LA would fly in the bible belt of the same country ? I've seen guys here who stared at other people's trodgers while peeing in the men's room get hammered afterwards ... true, a society's values are not always fixed, but the society's permissible boundaries are always defined by her CURRENT values ...

and that's the whole point of keeping the law, which I think, many are missing ... this law is kept as a reflection of the society we live in, we don't see police squads breaking up sunday night discos, we don't see taskforces and vigilantes rounding up brokebackers ... we don't have surveillance teams busting into brokebacking people ...

so why keep it on the books if it's never, or rarely going to be used (I can think of some examples perhaps, say gay rape ? ) ... cos this law reflects the acceptable norms and permissible boundaries of our society, I don't see it as limiting the space for people of different orientation, but preserving the space of people in the mainstream, as the powers that be has mentioned before, brokebackers are now employed as civil servants, etc etc ... they are not being driven underground, they even have their own parades now ... so what's the problem ? I don't see it as an intrusion of privacy ... let me give you another example, there's another obscure piece of law in the books that criminalizes intercourse with animals ... I have a friend who worked in emergency services, and he has a whole collection of stories about responding to calls from women(especially rich tai tais), who got stuck with their pet doggies while bonking them ... do we see these women being hauled up through the court system ? ... do we see them being splashed on the newpaper ? ...

nothing has changed for anybody, really ... but the larger society has certainly spoken on where she stands ...

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