HOTA: Opt Out and You are Marked...!

last SG · 2007-04-18T16:33:43+00:00

Asking this is like why women do not need to serve NS. The main reason is due to religious beliefs. But how they identify muslims? Not all of the same race...

sgquitter SG

Very true. and i totally agree.

Furthermore, there is not enough publicity about this. Many people do not even know that they are opt-in by default. Please educate your family members and friends - we have to do what the gabramen failed to do. Rolling Eyes

anyway, we juz have to understand now that whether we like it or not, currently this is what is already in effect - we are opt-in by default. If you and your family and friends don't feel good about it, opt-out and don't be threatened by fear tactics.

And no need to go hospital to take the opt-out form

http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/forms.aspx?id=94

Very Happy

Rock^Star SG

If you've opted out and then down the pecking order, ok what.........

Singapore functions on meritocracy, what's new?

sgquitter SG

well, i dunno if money is made from those organ transplants, but i know that our gabramen wants us to be known as the 'Medical Hub'... so i guess sacrifices have to be made for that to happen Neutral

Originally posted by Rock^Star:
If you've opted out and then down the pecking order, ok what.........

And who knows who gets the organ first? There's no transparency in the organ transplant priority list, and all of a sudden we see the policy placing high emphasis on the 'protection of privacy' when it serves the purpose Rolling Eyes

Whos to ensure that there's no favoritism towards certain nationalities (or FTs), financial status (aka rich & elites), or other 'special groups'?

sgquitter SG

when u said 'when the heart stops beating', u also have to consider if the heart is beating on its own or with the aid of equipment. it doesn't make sense to say if a heart cannot beat on its own then we should stop providing the aid.

Anyway, the doctors around the world can't even decide if brain dead is really dead, and CANNOT agree on the tests to perform in order to pronounce a person brain-dead.

Look at the case i posted in the first page of this thread - doctors can make mistakes too. and also the case where the UK doctors pronounce a taiwanese TV newscaster brain-dead but she recovered after being transferred to beijing at the insistance of her family.

UK and US doctors fu cked up before. What makes u so confident of SG? Laughing Rolling Eyes

The recent case of that 'brain-dead' singaporean man doesn't show too well with how the authorities handled the situation.

There is more than what was reported in the papers. To read the family's side of the story

http://matrixisland.blogspot.com/2007/02/true-colour-of-matrix-masters.html

Mad Evil or Very Mad

raymond_sianz SG

Totally agree with you man. I think I should let me parents decide whether I am totally dead or not rather then some stupid doctors who wanna take my parts to donate it asap.

charlize SG

Hey they are the ones getting paid million dollar salaries to think up of such stuff. Laughing

CM06 SG

May you all die in bed from old age after living long and happy lives.

walesa SG

Laughing

Funny eh? Issues like secrecy and confidentiality always take precedence when it comes to prioritising organ donation and voting just like how foreign talents are always welcomed so long as they aren't doing anything to undermine the thugs in power... Wink

helpdesk^^ SG

I think somehow you misunderstand my sentiments. I feel coerced into this situation whereby my human rights are hinged slightly towards being eroded. Humans, emotions are not clear cut issues that can be easily dictated.

The innocent man jailed for a crime he did not commit, years later, upon release, have no future and nothing much to look forward to, after years of wrongful imprisonment... does he not have a right to feel sore? But does he have any proper recourse? Nope. This issue was brought up and it is of the view that if there were recourse for such instances... it would put enormous pressure on the courts during trial etc....

I am just saying that when dealing with people, we all have our rights and it is simply difficult to reconcile that our rights are like "removed" by statue. I did not say that the Act has no merits BUT more like that its merits are not so easily achieved by merely making it a part of law. The true merit in the system must be equitable and accountable. We do not yet have the "accountable" side of their story except that they say they will be vigilant. Now we all know that vigilance is not 100% prevention.

I am saying that in situations where we cannot be guaranteed results, we should be treated fairly too. It is not without cause that people worry about the program and how it will implemented. The voice of the masses should be heard.

If we all accepted the logical reasons put forth to us by our government without thought, it just seems that our nation has forgotton how to think. Therefore there will always be opposing views. Especially when it boils down to matters concern delicate people lives and health.

I for one am not an uncompassionate person, I dare say so. But that does not mean that I donate to every single tissue paper peddler.... I just feel that a law like that is like a leaky cauldron. And since it is leaky and concerns direct human interest and lives, we should be even more carfeul when enacting laws about such.

helpdesk^^ SG

Very Happy Let's share lah... ^^

helpdesk^^ SG

I think there is some truth to this kind of sentiments. Policymakers don't deal with people although many times they deal with people issues.

I kinda feel that many times, people who work with machines, numbers, in a controlled environment becomes isolated and alienated from the real world of humans and emotions. They draw up their plans of action and laws by studying statistics instead of proper ground work observation and case studies over extended periods of time.

And by the way, I happen to feel that if people say that they have too many items on their agenda to do ground work (such low level duties) then they should maybe take a pay cut (such a moral thing really) and instead channel available funds for proper training of more capable "lower-level" staff to do the studies and observations and then make the recommendations.

Father Lim SG

other than the HOTA, which may or may not be good... (okay many think it is bad)
has anyone considered about the opinion of those interviewed in the papers...

one of those who opted out said that in the event that if she needed an organ, she would go overseas, buy or someone kindhearted Singaporean would donate to her...

Another person said that in the event that he needs an organ, would it be too late to opt-in again....

i would like everyone to think if this is fair.... U expect your fellow Singaporeans to help you in your time of need, but in the first place, u refuse to put yourself in a position to be able to help others... to put it simply, these ppl dun want to join the queue, but expect others to give way to you when u need it....
isn't this behaviour selfish...

The program may be implemented or governed poorly... but i feel that after my death, i have been able to help some other people to live their life, then maybe my death may be meaningful... after all death comes to all...

Just be aware of the saying "you reap what you sow"...
Just my 2 cents worth and something to think about...

korusu SG

actually there is something i want to voice out...
why is the government obliged to help people with organ failure? there are old people on the streets who doesnt receive aid and suffering. so does it make sense to draft out an act just to aid those with organ failure? is it simply because there is more money in this enterprise, so they enacted HOTA? For the deceased's family, do they receive money for the organs? Do the recipients of the organs pay for the organ?

well i read some rather dark articles in sbf suggesting that much of the organs obtained from HOTA goes to those wealthy one who came singapore for transplant and are willing to pay good money for them. But honestly, i hate to think that some person out there is profiting from the organs they obtain for free

LazerLordz SG

Well, apparently stupidity has its price as well huh. Laughing

ghostmayhem SG

hi guys

im currently a student studying in JC...
i understand that im still quite young amongst all of u veterans, so please duo duo chi jiao.

i was randomly surfing the net when i came across this forum topic
i have been doing research on the HOTA act for almost 2 months now as part of a school project me and a few friends are initiating.

having read through all the posts so far, i would like to give you guys my 2 cents worth.

Firstly, I understand that many of you are very uncomfortable with the idea of HOTA. it is indeed after all, quite dubious.

" All non-Muslim Singapore Citizens and Permanent Residents between the ages of 21 and 60 years are included under HOTA. They will have priority in receiving a cadaveric organ if they need one. However, they can also opt out of HOTA if they do not wish to donate their organs when they die "

Before beginning my research on organ donation in Singapore, i was also quite against the idea of HOTA as well. seriously, who wants to be forced to donate their organs?

But having read through many articles over the past few weeks, watching videos on organ donation, scrutinizing and mugging the details in the HOTA scheme etc.. i've come to realize that HOTA is essentially a scheme that benefits us all, albeit it has its loopholes.

Firstly, many people are afraid that doctors will not try their best to save them if they are included in HOTA

Actually right, if you all go read up more about HOTA, you will realize that the medical team working for the organ transplant is completely seperate from the doctors and nurses that are trying to save you.

In other words, when you are sick, you go to doctor, the doctor will try to save you. When you fall even sicker, the doctor will try even harder to save you... (because he gets more $$$) IF you really fall into a COMA, you will be kept alive. a COMA does not equal brain dead.
However, only when you REALLY BRAIN DEAD, and the doctors cannot earn any more $$$ out of trying to save you because there is NO WAY TO SAVE A BRAIN DEAD PERSON, the medical organ transplant team will be contacted.

secondly, to clarify about Muslims and why they arent included in HOTA
Muslims are not included inside because of religious reasons. the islamic religion requires their bodies to be complete when they are dead.

Then how is this fair? Well, Muslims by default will NOT receive the same priority as other people who have pledged their organs through the HOTA scheme.
However, Muslims can opt in into the Medical (Therapy, Education and Research) ACT (MTERA)
this act is essentially the same as HOTA, except that its an opt-in scheme, and it includes ALL organs and tissue (HOTA only includes 4) So, for Muslims who choose to opt-in into MTERA, they will be given same priority as people who are inside HOTA
simple as that.

Just for additional information, organ donation is actually supported by the Islamic Religious Council of Singapore (MUIS).
"The Fatwa Committee's view is that these latest amendments under HOTA (in 2004) are permissable, according to islamic religious laws and principles. A Muslim can donate his or her kidney, heart, liver and cornea with consent of one next-of-kin and witnessed by another person" - MUIS Fatwas

moral issues regarding hota. is it right to force people to donate their organs?

i understand the moral ambiguity exists. Due to the flaws of human nature, no man can depict what is morally good or bad. that power can only be given to God.

however, i would like to put forth my point of view...
i just cook up this story on the spot....

Peter is an ordinary 39 year-old Singaporean, middle class, works in part-time jobs and is very good at counterstrike. One day, he receives a letter informing him about HOTA.

"HOTA? donate organ? siao ah? why i want to donate organ for? my organ is my organ... give people for what? If i say yes, then next time doctor wont save me when im dying. They will purposely make me die so they can kope my organs! this is crap man. im opting out! if i really need organ someday, i will go overseas and buy"

Samuel is Peter's best friend. He has a good heart, and is essentially a very good person. Unfortunately, he is a terrible smoker. In fact, all his friends continually discourage him from smoking but he is not convinced. he has already suffered from stroke 5 times over, but still thinks he is invincible and challeges himself to smoke 2000 sticks by his next birthday, which is next week. however, he strongly believes in saving lives through organ donation, and stays in HOTA.

Kevin is a random passerby. He is rich and stingy, hates children, and enjoys kicking cats on sidewalks when no-one is looking. However, when he receives his HOTA letter, he completely forgets about replying to it and as a result, he stays in the HOTA scheme...

One day, Samuel and Peter were hanging out watching EPL when Samuel suddenly jerks about and spasms like crazy and got unconcious. Peter panicks and calls the ambulance....

At the hospital, the doctor tells Peter the bad news. Samuel is diagnosed with heart failure and requires a heart transplant within a week or he will die. Peter is DEVASTATED. He has no idea what to do. Something like this has never happened. Watching his poor friend through the glass window, he unknowingly sheds a tear...

The next day, Peter is on his way to visit Samuel at the hospital. Suay suay while crossing a zebra crossing, Kevin while driving his sports car, KNOCKS PETER down!

Peter instantly dies on the spot, but right outside the hospital. kevin suffers a head concussion and is brought into ICU immediately. Doctors try and try to cure him, because kevin is a rich man and can pay them well.
unfortunately, he is brain dead. there is no way he can be saved.

Now, the whole irony of the story kicks in.

Samuel needs a heart transplant. Being in the HOTA scheme, he is eligible to obtain an organ from another HOTA dead patient.

Peter just died, but he cannot donate his heart althoguh he would dearly want to, to save his best friend. Why? because hes not in HOTA. As a result, he dies a lonely death, with his heart being wasted away (along with all the other organs)

Kevin, who is an evil person at heart, has had no chance to spend his lifetime of wealth. He is declared brain dead, and the doctors decide to harvest his heart, to save Samuel.

So, the ending is that Samuel, the foolish smoker who takes like 20 sticks a day, is saved. Peter wastes his organs away, although he wished he could have given them to his best friend. and Kevin, who is a big bastard, does something good for once in his life, but sadly never ever gets to spend his accumulated wealth.

the moral of the story?
Life is unfair. It is very unfair. The good can be punished severely, while the bad are given second chances when they dont deserve it. Really, theres nothing we can do to make life a fair battle.

But, we can at least try to make things fairer.

This is exactly what hota is about.
to make organ donation a much fairer procedure.

You sacrifice a little of yourself in exchange for protection from organ failure in future. IF you choose not to sacrifice yourself, then you get no protection whatsoever lor. it is really quite fair.

as for making HOTA and opt-out scheme rather an opt-in scheme...
back in the days when HOTA was opt in, only 5 organ transplants were made a year. honestly, would anyone in their right mind opt-in, unless they are super-kind hearted? it really isnt worth the effort (must fill up form some more)

Since the change in HOTA to make it an opt-out system.
almost 1 organ transplant is made everyday. yes, 1 bloody life is saved everyday, compared to the miserable 5 a year. it really is quite effective.

So. in conclusion. with the implementation of HOTA.
THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE DIE FROM ACCIDENTS.
THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE DIE FROM BRAIN DEATH
A LOT LESS PEOPLE DIE FROM ORGAN FAILURES BECAUSE
A LOT MORE ORGANS ARE NO LONGER BEING WASTED.

this is my 2 cents worth. since embarking on the project, i have never looked back. compared to NKF and all that crap, this is a much worthy cause.

*btw did you know that statiscally,
you have a much higher chance of receiving an organ due to organ failure, than actually dying in an appropriate manner so that your organs are harvested for HOTA? =) *

ShutterBug SG

There's still a "stench" somewhere within HOTA...
regardless how lengthy the explanation about it is...

Mad

mancha SG

Decide yourself.
If you are not happy about HOTA then opt out.
If you do not mind HOTA, then let it be.
No point whining.
You may not like it, but others don't mind.
Anyway the majority of the deceased pass away unmolested. I don't have the figure, but it may be 99% or more pass away without their organs harvested.
So most likely all this kpkb is unnecessay.
The relatives of the few that have the organs harvested usually approve of if.
So far only one case turned ugly in Singapore.

You are given a way to escape what you do not like.
Take it.

If HOTA is scraped, I tell you, another group will rise, and campaign for organ harvesting.

oxford mushroom SG

Originally posted by mancha:
Decide yourself.
If you are not happy about HOTA [b]then opt out.
If you do not mind HOTA, then let it be.
No point whining.
You may not like it, but others don't mind.[/b]

If this lot don't whine they have nothing else to do. Don't take away their raison d'etre in life Mr. Green

HOTA has saved many more lives since its implementation. Those who object to organ transplant from brain dead victims can indeed opt out and should be placed at the back of the queue if they need an organ themselves. Actually, I think it is disingenuous to object to organ transplants harvested from brain dead donors but expect to receive one when they are in need of one themselves. If you opt out of HOTA, you should not get an organ harvested under HOTA either.

ShutterBug SG

Ok, looks like in future when birth rates in Singapore becomes intolerable by the gov., they will implment yet another strong arm policy such as; those who are married and have no children will need to contribute MORE in CPF...

I won't be surprised at all....

Rolling Eyes

foomwee88 SG

About 220 of us in our estate had opted our and carried with the card (like an I.C) in our wallet,we feel very safe now cauz no one would rob our organs w/o our consent when we r dieing.

Had all these PAP's dogs here opted out oreli??? Laughing

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