I do not understand why we need more foreign talent

last SG · 2006-08-27T15:47:39+00:00

I think you should read this article by bluelantern, and then re-consider your stand on this issue: ================================================== Mr W...

play_n_play SG

excellent point... i agreed with u...

ShutterBug SG

Actually, agreeing with me is pointless.

I mean, sadly we lack a "voice" to tell our all knowing gov what is bothering us, the local people. Then again, if we do have someone to speak on our behalf, would they be heeded??

It's like those 18th century war ships where all the slaves are rowing the large galleon below deck and they are up on decl steering the ship.

We row like mad, they just steer...

jenn_y SG

you reap what you sow. if locals are good enough and would make do with "low and mid level jobs [currently] saturated by FWs from PRC", surely government and employers would prefer them over foreigners. the problem is some singaporeans aren't satisfied with lower than average salaries, while others are, relatively, just not up to the task. as long as foreigners possess more capabilities than locals (let's move away from the subject of PRCs' grasp of the english language because, as we know, many singaporeans are at times as incomprehensible, too), they'd be preferred over the latter, regardless of their "effectiveness". why? because it's not just about the cost of labor.

sourketchup SG

Surely an attraction of foreigners over Singaporeans is that they ask for less pay?

That's because they do not intend to stay on here, and the Sing dollars they are getting translates into a large sum of money when they go home. One reason some S'poreans cannot stick with lower paying jobs is because of the high cost of living here. If this is not tackled, we will never be able to compete with most foreigners.

If both are equally "good enough", the one that asks for less pay gets the job. Simple and brutal.

As for whether most foreigners are more capable than Singaporeans, well, I don't think there is an objective way to make that assessment, other than anecdotes. For every competent foreigner, someone else can recall a bumbling one.

ShutterBug SG

As such, there may come a time, when a large percentage of locals will have moved out of Singapore to neighboring countries. And when economy takes a bad dip and the FTs as well as the FWs take flight, there wouldn't be much population left, to say nothing about shortage of babies.

It's relative costs, and the FTs' and FWs' pursuit of our dollars.

How much better, can or could a FW/FT from PRC working as a counter assistance in a foodcourt such as Kopitiam foodcourt in some shopping centers? I've seen them, they only speak Mandarin very well and that's about it. I don't see any "better performance".

Let me say this; Singapore's service standard in retail and service related industries (such as those in food courts) are going to go further down the drain because of them.

I mean, talk about locals not being willing to move out of their comfort zones; what about these multitude of PRCs talented and untalented? Are they willing to speak English besides Mandarin?? How many times I encountered (has anyone of you) assistance in retail who simply cannot speak or understand English and has to refer me to another colleague. In HDB branch office, a very chinese lady behind the counter, could not understand what I wanted to enquire about and had to call in her supervisor.

What the hell man, how is this deemed EFFICIENT and PERFORMANCE? Simply because they flew thousands of miles here from China and accepts lower salaries? I know there are REAL talented ones here, have met and spoken to them - they are effectively billingual. They spoke Mandarin very well, and when they speak English, you can here diction in every word that has the letters 'S', 'T', and 'R'. And there is an ocean of non-talented ones out there who consistently come knocking at my company door seeking employment - I turn them down flat. I let them rattle off in Mandarin and then reply asking them in either English (proper form) or in my own mother-tongue Teochew, can you speak English? or in the case of Teochew; can you speak Teochew?

THere are also other forms of talents roaming our streets here; today I was downtown Orchard Road Wisma Atria food court for lunch. A man in his early 40s approached me attired in smart casuals and asked me if I would like to have my fortune told. I said to him in English; "I am just hungry, but not that hungry." and I walked away.

oxford mushroom SG

The market will decide who is better value for the job, FT or locals. The PRC's English may be poor but the employer may feel that it does not matter because the bulk of Singaporeans speak Mandarin or that his products target Mandarin-speaking customers. He may even prefer the FT to the English-speaking Malay Singaporean. On the other hand, retail businesses that target Malay or Indian customers would be daft to employ PRCs who do not speak English.

The fact that so many businesses employ PRCs indicate that they are considered to be better value.

jenn_y SG

heh pls, high cost of living? come to vancouver or go to london if you wanna have a taste of "high cost of living".

high cost of living simply originates from singaporeans' spending extravagence. consider the number of people buying a flat when their financial situation only allow them to rent one, the number of teens buying branded items, eating away their parents' income... these are just two among many others (that i cannot think of, being away from singapore for quite a while). that's "high cost of living" for you. if you ask me, i'd think that singapore's cost of living is pretty okay. not very high, not very low; somewhat just right. also, government taxes a reasonable amount (canada has an income tax of 40% in case you do not know... about half of one's income is already gone when it reaches his/her bank account).

although you're right in saying that sin dollar converts into a large amount of their home currency, you must note also note that they are currently living in singapore, thus spending their money here. ok, they have families in their home country - then they have to support themselves and their family - more expense. if foreigners can support themselves + their families overseas with lower salaries... then why not singaporeans??? then you might say singaporeans have their family here too...............in the first place, why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?

high cost of living? more like making your living high-cost.

sourketchup SG

I am sure that there are S'poreans who like to splurge on luxury or higher-end items. There are also those who spend lots of money on more expensive cars that they can ill-afford. But to label the many Singaporeans who are just trying to survive day-to-day with that kind of description is not right. As Andy Ho pointed out in his recent article in the Straits Times, there is a large group of Singaporeans that are caught now, who do not have the necessary skills and knowledge to earn middle-class incomes, and yet cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners.

And as you rightly pointed out, it is difficult to start a family in Singapore with the pay given out to foreigners. Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it. And just to untangle your thoughts, foreigners CAN work here and support a family back home because the costs of living back in their homelands are so much lower. Why do you think thousands of Indonesians and Filipino ladies come here to work as maids? By your logic, Singaporean women should be able to work as maids too, having the same pay as the Indonesians and Filipinos as long as they rent flats and do not spend extravagantly. Rolling Eyes

Many foreigners do not mind the low pay while living here because they are only here temporarily.

And thanks for bringing up cities like London. The English can have large numbers of immigrants there because those who cannot make it in the big cities can retreat to the smaller cities and towns. And don't bring taxes into this. I am not sure about income tax rates in Canada, but I do know that in the UK, tax rates can be up to 50%. Taxes may be higher in UK or Canada, but residents do not have to think about medical expenses and tertiary education. We have low taxes here, but everything has to be paid for ourselves.

You have indeed been away from Singapore for quite a while. Go talk to the new unemployed and understand their situation.

Having said ALL that, I think foreigners have to be allowed in, in principle, but the details have to be fine-tuned.

ShutterBug SG

Very well said.

Thanks for saving me the time for such a lengthy and detailed reply.

jenn_y SG

i don't exactly know your stand on this issue (haven't read the last few pages of this thread) but that was a rather stringent response, though it tasted a bit like sour ketchup. i agree with you the part about temporary stay, but i suppose you were joking when you said 'Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it.'

i don't get why singaporeans "cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners" tho - hope you can enlighten me on that

btw, we still do pay for medical expenses, albeit a smaller amount, and we pay the total cost of our tertiary education.

sourketchup SG

Sorry if I sounded more stern that I wanted to, no offence meant.

The costs of living here are not inconsiderable. Flats take years to pay for (assuming you are not retrenched), transport costs can take up a chunk of someone's pay and we have not taken into account of taking care of our children and of our parents. Tertiary education is not cheap, and don't forget we have to save for our old age.

I think the government is still right to bring in foreigners. Big MNCs would go elsewhere for cheap labour easily if it is not available in Singapore. Some foreigners do have knowledge or skills we don't have. And people who can move from country to country tend (I use the word "tend" ) to be more energetic and ambitious.

Presume you are in Canada? How's life there?

PoRen SG

2.5 yrs of NS and many yrs of reservist.
How to compensate this?

jenn_y SG

yeah. life's pretty dull after a year (in vancouver). now that i've distant myself from singapore a lil (or a lot), i think singapore's a really diplomatic communist country. hehe.

actually i dun really like politics lah, but the threadstarter's title seem to be one of the many other that is suggestive of discrimination towards foreigners... once a foreigner myself (tho assimilated into the local culture at a very young age), i just felt i had to make a voice... though it's apparent that i'm quite a complete idiot for politics. many singaporeans just...discriminate foreigners just because they are innately different and somehow think that they're superior just because they're standing on their own land. it's one thing to be patriotic but another to be racist.

but it's good to see that there are singaporeans who do use their brains when making judgments.

play_n_play SG

did u find a job in canada especially in vancouver, a tourist city?

i have been there several times. basically i think canada is only good for kid or retirement.

Kyo23 SG

No way to compensate it. What's lost is lost. Maybe the NS bonus will lighten the pain. Only thing you can do is to cut your loses. Adapt to the changing environment.

Kyo23 SG

I do not believe many singaporeans discriminate foreigners and somehow think that they're superior just because they're standing on their own land. If you care to analyse, you will notice that only those who think they are unfairly treated after making sacrifice are voicing out their dismay especially those who had been conscripted or will be conscript to serve NS. I do not see majority of the woman or the rich protesting against FT policy.
Between singaporean and foreigners, there are nothing innately different except that the sg guy have to sacrifice 2.5 years of their life to serve the nation. Do you see such differences in canada?

Anyway, i do not think singaporean have a choice politically. Why not learn to adapt to this harsh changing environment and learn to survive like the foreigner. If they can work their heart out in singapore at low pay, the local can do the same and be extreme. Why start a family here in singapore when the environment is only suitable for gold digging?

Just my 2 cents of opinion here

oxford mushroom SG

That is indeed the case. Shall we require first generation PRs serve some form of national service too? But to be fair, we must require that of Singaporean women as well. They need not all serve in the army. They can be deployed in the Civil Defence, in hospitals, hospices, prisons, social work departments etc, as long as they serve two years of NS like all the men.

The alternative is to compensate the men for the 2 years of NS and the many years of reservist. But as someone asked, what is adequate compensation? 20% discount for attendances at government clinics and hospitals?

jenn_y SG

you're very right in saying that. i'm only in high school lah, haha.

jenn_y SG

"I do not believe many singaporeans discriminate foreigners and somehow think that they're superior just because they're standing on their own land. "

trust me - i speak from first hand experience - there are A LOT. maybe you just haven't met them, i duno.

Kyo23 SG

I hope i can answer you this question. To ask for the impossible would be to pay the men close to the regular market rate for their sacrifice. It is still consider a sacrifice because not everyone want to start a career in the army. but since it was already deemed impossible, I believe the sg men have to take it hard down their throat with whatever pathetic compensations that the government throw at them e.g. NS Bonus.....and stop complaining but to accept the facts. Next life wise up and be borned in other country to come back as FT to fight for the gold only, problem solved. At the same time be wise not to procreate in this land and bring misery to the next generation.

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