Violinist not allowed to defer NS

last SG · 2006-05-15T22:33:39+00:00

it's available in all major bookstores except popular. (i have, but i'm not sharing wif u. na na na na)

iveco SG

Yes I have served my 2 years. Would have preferred it to be in SCDF, the noble, life-saving force.

BillyBong SG

At the end of the day, can anyone ensure that he will be back to serve? That is the million dollar question. Assuming that he is allowed to defer his NS for his violin plucking lessons. Few years down the road, he decided not to come back, so who is going to be responsible for that? Are we just going to resign and accept the fact that another one just defaulted on NS? I may be quick to think of him as a defaulter, but ain't you as quick to brand him as a non-defaulter? You might be able to give him the benefit of the doubt, but not me, I am a pragmatist. If such a situation can be avoided, then it should.

Frankly, in my opinion with a classical music degree, the prospect in the West is better. I can't even recall any classical musician that is based in Singapore who have made it good. I have never compared the salaries of different professions, that's your assumptions. What I am comparing is the availability of classical music career in Singapore right now. The situation might change, but till it does, I stand by my thinking. You might be the arty-farty person, but not me. Progress in our society, that's definitely a yes, but not at the expense of compromising national defense. An additional man in the orbat is an additional fighting chance.

I have already mentioned that I am a selfish person. All human beings at one time or another are. Heck, I don't even know this violin boy that well, so give me the reasons why I should do his share of defense? Why don't you offer yourself to SAF to take up his duties instead when the s.hit hit the fan.

If curtis is unwilling to bend their school rules, why can't he look for other schools? It is not the school that make the musician, but the person himself. If he is really so good at plucking violin strings, then all the more he should prove to the world that no matter where ever he ended up in, he should be able to shine. If he is unable to do that, doesn't that again question his musical 'talents'? I never thought that every tertiary institution in the world is run in the same manner as our local Universities, you assume that I did.

Why do you continue to insist on the speculative route? It has not happened yet, so why assume? Why berate the person at the center when you know next to nothing about him? (as you yourself admitted) You're just going round in circles.

You didn't have to directly make the comparison or pay disparity between the music and 'others' sector. The insinuation was obvious. Too bad you enjoy stagnation over change. People like you will never understand what others see in music.

For someone who served NS, you seem to know nothing about war, despite your self-declared selfishness. In war you learn to trust yourself and the comrades in the next foxhole, regardless of their character or past history. No one should practice the luxury of selective aid on a battlefield. Too bad you think otherwise, especially against deferment-personnel.

You speak as if the world should revolve around Singapore and not the other way around. That is unfortunately typical of people nowadays. Curtis does not owe us a place and it is entirely up to their administration if they choose to 'bend the rules' to accomodate someone, the same way our administration treats Ike's request. I do agree that schools do not necessarily make the student, but using that as an excuse is just cheaply marginalising his opportunity and the school's gracious offer.

Hell why not recommend the Laselle-SIA college of the arts?
Mr. Green

BillyBong SG

What you've given is a whole load of bull. (excuse my frankness) You just proved the fact that people are willing to make concessions to further some sloppy manpower planning, IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION to your staunch views AGAINST disruption. That was the very essence of your argument wasn't it? To absolutely deny any and all requests for deferment? Yet you seem to readily condone the powers-that-be who have opened a loophole to solve their MO problem? Selective preference on your part then?

Our govt always claims to recruit the best minds, pay them the highest salaries pegged at top executives of top companies around the world, yet they cannot solve an already wrong recruitment policy?

Well, allow this humble peasant to offer one suggestion:

Allow medical students to COMPLETE their NS, then go for their 5-year medical course, at which time, SAF can recruit fully trained 'riflemen' as MOs, pending the relevant conversion course. With the right attractive package, it should have no problem enticing potential MOs.

will4 SG

If they come back at a later period, they should serve longer n is it too much for them? First Mindef had indicated preenlistees need to furnish a bond of

$75000 n the money to be forfeited if they defaulted NS. This is a major problem esp not too many people in Spore can afford this amount.
Which vocation is suitable for them if they came back to serve at 28? How long they need to serve is should the same as other preenlistees which is two years.
This violinist should serve at SAF Band n like the govt said"Practice what u learn"

iveco SG

THen law students should be posted to Legal Services and serve as counsel to those facing COurt Martial.

will4 SG

It should be also it depend on the manpopwer rquirement, if they can be posted to Legal services, they can also learn something n can contribute to

SAF.

Coquitlam SG

Why would I want to put my kid through all this hassle...

Just give up everything here and establish oneself overseas...

Coquitlam SG

Bottom line is...weigh the pros and cons and decide if the satisfaction of training to be world class will be worth the suffering.

Soul search and ask if an artist can ever achieve the same greatness and skill level here...

Its either pack up your bags for good and leave or stay and swim in mediocrity. Its a personal decision and no country should interfere

LazerLordz SG

It would be interesting to see which vocations everyone who voted yes and no belong to. I believe that your experience in NS shapes your attitude towards fellow soldiers and citizens.

It also contributes to the ideas we have about the role of NS as a whole, because different people see and experience various different things in service.

mfscrewu SG

Originally posted by BillyBong:
Why do you continue to insist on the speculative route? It has not happened yet, so why assume? Why berate the person at the center when you know next to nothing about him? (as you yourself admitted) You're just going round in circles.

Speculative route, well ain't you guilty of it as well? Rolling Eyes Likewise you are speculating that he will be coming back to serve. I did not assume, I am just taking a pragmatic point of view. So in a nutshell, can you ensure that he comes back to serve. Until you can provide a definitive answer to that question, I guess it is still the million dollar question. Whose head should roll when that happen?

Originally posted by BillyBong:
You didn't have to directly make the comparison or pay disparity between the music and 'others' sector. The insinuation was obvious. Too bad you enjoy stagnation over change. People like you will never understand what others see in music.

Again you assume that I am making obvious insinuation. For a moment, why don't you look around in Singapore and name me a couple of classical musician who have make it good in Singapore. None that I can recall. This is a fact not an assumption. You are right that I don't see arty-farty music in the same light as you, I am an old boor (as mentioned in my previous post). I don't appreciate music in the same way you don't appreciate the need for personel to maintain the operational capability of SAF.

Originally posted by BillyBong:
For someone who served NS, you seem to know nothing about war, despite your self-declared selfishness. In war you learn to trust yourself and the comrades in the next foxhole, regardless of their character or past history. No one should practice the luxury of selective aid on a battlefield. Too bad you think otherwise, especially against deferment-personnel.

If in war that I need to fight in a foxhole, that means we have lost. I don't fight at that level. When I am in no man's land, I trusted my team more than I can trust the violin plucker. I have nothing against deferment if it is officially allowed. Why bend the rules again when it has been stated that no deferment is entertained. If you allowed deferment to violin plucker, it must also be allowed to others who need it more genuinely. For example, what about a young father who has to take care of his family and need time to settle them in good hands before he serve NS less important than violin plucker's music education? I am selfish, then what about violin plucker? Isn't he as selfish to want to get his music education first over the defense of this country? Rolling Eyes

Originally posted by BillyBong:
You speak as if the world should revolve around Singapore and not the other way around. That is unfortunately typical of people nowadays. Curtis does not owe us a place and it is entirely up to their administration if they choose to 'bend the rules' to accomodate someone, the same way our administration treats Ike's request. I do agree that schools do not necessarily make the student, but using that as an excuse is just cheaply marginalising his opportunity and the school's gracious offer.

Hell why not recommend the Laselle-SIA college of the arts?

Does the world revolve around Singapore? Oh gosh, when did that happen? Oh right when you assume that I thought it does happen. Mr. Green Curtis does not owe us a place, so does SAF which don't owe violin plucker an entertainment to defer. There are so many good music schools around the world, why can't he apply for them after he served? If he is good enough, then he should reapply for a scholarship. The reason is legitimate, so what is wrong with that? Among them, there will be one which will be able to offer the quality music education violin plucker so craves for.

I would recommend Laselle-SIA college of the arts. Why not? Mr. Green

AkionLCG SG

I'm a BMT instructor and I had seen recruits with family problems ranging from pregnant girlfriend to sole breadwinner. They didn't have the chance to defer but yet carry on with their BMT with their smile on. Kudos to them.

I think the issue here is about equality among male singaporean who need to serve the nation. If the violinist is allowed to defer, what about my recruits? Shouldn't they be given the deferment as well?

Frankly speaking, if the violinist keep this under wraps, he would have a higher chance of getting his deferment. Since it is openly discussed here, I think the chance is practically zero. A good example: the death sentence of the vietnamese drug smuggler.

LazerLordz SG

Originally posted by AkionLCG:

I'm a BMT instructor and I had seen recruits with family problems ranging from pregnant girlfriend to sole breadwinner. They didn't have the chance to defer but yet carry on with their BMT with their smile on. Kudos to them.

I think the issue here is about [b]equality among male singaporean who need to serve the nation. If the violinist is allowed to defer, what about my recruits? Shouldn't they be given the deferment as well?

Frankly speaking, if the violinist keep this under wraps, he would have a higher chance of getting his deferment. Since it is openly discussed here, I think the chance is practically zero. A good example: the death sentence of the vietnamese drug smuggler.[/b]

Which is why I am in favor of a extended and flexible enlistment period.Our forces are not that thinly stretched today, and we are in peacetime.

Needs based deferment policy that is not set in stone, and enlistees with financial problems should be allowed to settle them, either through extensions or a part-time NS program which allows them to work and serve.

Why is this important now, because we have a conflict between national defence, national vision and citizenry welfare. I'm a believer that if you let a man settle his problems or schooling before enlistment, he will make a less distracted soldier, with a better state of mind.

I've seen messed up soldiers who clearly, are better off not being in the service, and I cannot understand why we are spending more on one man who is not motivated due to many reasons, which given due flexibility, could have been solved.

It's not about one violinist, or one poor chap, the system itself must allow for flexibility so that we can acheive greater equality.

BillyBong SG

You seem to confuse 'famous' with 'rich'. I need not make assumptions when your posts are choke full of innuendoes. And yes, i concede that for classical music, aside from the Singapore Symphonic Orchestra, you are unlikely to find stardom. And since you are an 'old boor', i see no point in trying to pull the wool from your eyes.

If fighting in a foxhole means you concede defeat, i shudder to think of the weak-willed NS-men that are coming through the ranks. By your own admission, NS has failed to instill in you the fighting spirit necessary to win. If forced to fight by your side, i'd worry more about you then some 'violin-plucker'.

If he doesn't appeal, he doesn't know whether he gets his shot. If it falls through, he serves, no exceptions. But is it wrong to try? Is it wrong to hope? Is that act alone considered being 'selfish'?

He is already 'good enough' as his place was offered by way of invitation, not application. The reason is legitimate, so why not serve after? What is the potential loss? Or is your 'young father' theory looming overhead? Have you forgotten the 'young mother'? or grandparents? Mr. Green

BillyBong SG

As you already know, some people are MORE EQUAL then others.

If people are to preach this 'equality' system of non-deferment, then it applies across the board, no exceptions, not even to regulars, MOs and all forms of scholarships.

I just don't think this violinist should be made an example of while other scholars take advantage of an institutionalised system that benefits some people over others.

will4 SG

What ur recruit is doing is only trying to make themselves feel better.
I have a colleague ran away during BMT recourse cause of family problem.

equlus84 SG

I have been observing this thread, for sometime........ I personally have finished NSF and is now reservist in a particular Guards battalion.

I personally think that this violinist should not get a disruption or deferment, bcos if you take a look at the SAFSA and MDC. Many of our artiste and celebs came from MDC. I believe there is a SAF band in which perhaps they can post him there. This way, he can still retain his abilities in playing the instrument at the same time complete his NS, interacting with other skillfull musicians. I believe ppls like JJ Lin is from MDC if I am not wrong..... I sympathise and agree to a certain extent that NS system should not be given leeways to the special class of ppls and I can understand the anger some display here in the forum. But think of it this way....... the risk of dying or kana some veri major injuries during NS, NS disrupting the 2.5 yrs of your precious youth, I have experience myself some difficulties coping by in the university.

I strongly believe this sentiments and srguement abt NS system should not be just solely discussed in a single package or individually. One must look at the entire social, economical mindset of the Singaporeans. I have encounter other country ppls like Swede, Finns on other forums. Both nations have been pratising NS systems for long time. Their citizens ironically, seem to be veri positive and supportive of their conscription systems. After some lengthly discussion, I came to this conclusion........ Yes, at times, their conscripts do chao keng, but they do NS as they want to protect their way of life and most importantly, their democracy. Thus if we relate back to Singapore..........
Everything here is so mudane, banal, state-own and controlled. Thus, the ppls dun find any means and reason to love our country. look at the scholars in our tertiary education system, the govt give them free education, food, logging, laptop and on top of that they get 500 a month. Think of it this way, the govt rather give the chance to a foreigner 3000km away, rather than a local JC or Poly students. U chiong for almost one plus yr in SAF then u get 500 dollars onli. Laggi best, during holiday, they go home to play, while most Singaporean males are also packing their packs, to enjoy a few weeks stay in the wildlife reserves of Lim Chu Kang or Marsiling. Lol. Next time u graduate the govt will most prob slap a pink IC at their face and they bcome Singaporeans while u have to suffer all those Mob,RT, ICT, wat more, u stand to lose your jobs to these new 'talents' as they no need reservist. Dun get me wrong, I am not whining here. If the govt do not give respect to all Singaporeans, treating this island as a rich harbour, when u happy u come, going gets tough u leave........ how do u expect Singaporeans to love NS or even love Singapore. Sometimes GCT should ask himself, why are Singaporeans quiting? Is it just bcos other countries have greener pasture. Wat makes a Singaporean? How would some one love a place when they dun even own anything, or their views are never respected. If our govt still hang on to this " Singapore is like a hotel" mentality towards the foreigners, dun expect there will be any improvement in morale of the ppls .

LazerLordz SG

Okay.

Fair comments there Equlus84..

lighthand SG

I'm a regular in service for a long time, and sad to say I've seen my fair share of NS and regulars die in training or ops. Each time that happens to someone close we like to console ourself and others that it's for a reason. That each of them was doing something to protect our love ones, way of life and country.

Now my question is this: What do you tell the mother/father of someone who died in service to the country, that their son's life was lost not in vain when they see in the papers that someone else was defering his NS to play violin?

I know you'll say that he is just asking for a deferment, but what about the others who are stepping into his place so that he could have his deferment? Are they somehow a lesser being than him just because they do not have his talents?

[email protected] SG

laz, u know what? my dad pointed this out to me over the phone last week.

everyone keeps saying "equality equality equality"

nobody realises this sort of "equality" is simply illogical communism.

the whole concept of "one person is poor, everone should be poor". Its just communism. So there u go. Singapore is being run by communists, and worse still, many people here are communists without even realising it.

Equality that does not harm social progress, and rewards those who work hard and are talented, is democracy,

Equality that harms the society and gives nobody a chance to shine regardless of talent and diligence, is plain communism.

So is singapore a democratic or a communist country? I think its quite clear now.

LazerLordz SG

We've got a unique brand of communists that live their whole lives trying to shove mediocre down the throat of others, and when they finally strike rich, refuse to help others and say social welfare is for Euro-wussies.

Doesn't that sound familiar?We've got the most malevolent people in the world..

So, in order to deny the chap a chance to defer, they are willing to be associated with propagating the inflexibility that is killing the needy, and in the end, bleat like lambs.

[email protected], everytime a thread like this comes up, I can play fortune-teller and eat popcorn while the show goes on, planned like clockwork, and people say their lines..

Oh damn.Wrong nation, wrong society..

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