Violinist not allowed to defer NS

last SG · 2006-05-15T22:33:39+00:00

it's available in all major bookstores except popular. (i have, but i'm not sharing wif u. na na na na)

LazerLordz SG

the system has to change with the times. We would do well to learn from nations with conscription who are under turmoil and war..

The draft is making a comeback, and it has its merits.I support NS, but NS at the expense of national interests and longterm objectives will only defeat the original purpose as a pillar of stability.

Fatum SG

the system is not perfect of course, but where do you draw the line ? ... and how do you define "national interests" and "longterm objectives" ? ... some gifted mathematician or musician ? ... talented football players ? ... online gamers ? ... artists ? ... dancers ? ... you know ... I sashayed down catwalks in my teens ... should I perhaps have applied for deferrment to take a shot at the modeling scene of milan or paris ? .... Laughing .... well, heck .. like I said ... I'm an egalitarian ... and I make no apologies for it ... and I walked the talk and paid my dues ...

let's go back to the basics and think back what National Service is all about eh, the SAF is in the business of War, it's not in the business of promoting the arts or the sciences, nurturing the next noble prize winner or beethoven ...

During turmoil and war, military laws apply ... deserters would be shot, it's a universal law, for any country the world over ... go google about deserters shot by the allies during WWII ... ditto Singapore ... but that's not peace eh ... the only way you can get everyone to make any sacrifice is to make sure that everyone makes that sacrifice ... no exceptions, no ? ... Wink

Fatum SG

well ... to be anal, for SAFOS and PSC scholars and all that, they are not granted deferment but rather disruptions ...

BillyBong SG

It seems you do not understand the meaning of case by case basis, along with your laundry list of predictable examples.

Since you continue to preach rigidity of a the law and narrowly prefer to enforce a blanket ban on deferment, nothing i say will make a difference.

In your mind, i suppose any OTHER industry (cooking? Gardening? Mr. Green ) is BETTER than MUSIC. It's too bad you form such a cheap opinion of so wonderous a talent.

If you were to trade places with Ike, i wonder whether your position would be as noble as they are now.

Perhaps your view of this might change if you'step to the edge of the looking glass', and see a different perspective.

will4 SG

Originally posted by oxford mushroom:

I agree..

I prefer a system allowing everyone to serve anytime between 18 and 30 but until the system is changed, it must be applied [b]equally to all.[/b]

Please send ur feedback to Mindef for proposal n future generation of people seeking deferment should be happy.

LazerLordz SG

Okay, let it be that way.Deferment and disruptions, eventually they still have to serve.Unless the monetary rewards from coming back to serve as a SAFOS scholar is more attractive than running away as a individual student that is not on scholarship..

BillyBong SG

He jolly well might not be coming back? Are you so quick to brand him a defaulter already? For all you know he might jolly well come back to serve too. Have you considered that as well?

With music qualifications, do you doubt that he cannot find a niche market in Singapore to promote music and the arts? Are you comparing the relatively PALTRY PAY of musicians against the MONEYBAGS of investment bankers, litigation lawyers, CEOs of MNCs etc? How narrow-minded is that? There is more to just earning big bucks. and there are certainly more opportunities in the west, where music is well-established. But shouldn't we start somewhere? How else should we progress?

Your single comment of 'while he is plucking his violin strings' displays abject contempt for a fellow Singaporean. In times of war, will you be one of those who selectively chooses WHO TO AID IN BATTLE even if we all wear the same uniform? What a pity then that in such times, instead of being selfless, you choose to remain selfish.

You already mentioned that no one will lose sleep if Ike serves at a later date, so why express your insistence that he must serve NS FIRST? Will the Curtis Institute reserve his place for 2 years? Do you think every tertiary institution in the world is run in the same manner as our local Universities?

You should tone down your judgemental comments and instead reflect on the possible opportunities of how best a balanced decision can be made. Imagine Curtis Institue getting a "sorry, NS first" response to their invitation.

What an affront. Mr. Green

BillyBong SG

Call it what you like, but the dudes still get their 'time out'.

You guys wanna preach letter of the law, then insist that scholars serve NS first too. Why should a scholarship be a passport to 'disruption' ?

So long as scholars and medical students get their deferment, the debate will always rage on.

oxford mushroom SG

I will do so...but to prevent abuse there must be a disincentive.

I propose that those who defer NS to a later date be required to serve a longer period. After all, someone coming in at 28 is unlikely to be as physically fit as someone at 18. If we allow people to defer NS to a later date, the longer they defer, the longer also must be the period of service.

OH-FF SG

What if pianist applies to be excused from chin ups and push-ups because his fingers are far too precious for his livelihood?

For example a Neuro Surgeon who relys on his stable hands to perform surgery is exempted from arms and field activities ! Even BMT ?

Twisted Evil

oxford mushroom SG

Just so that you know what you are talking about, here is a link to the Minister's speech.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/resources/speeches/2006/06mar06_speech2.html

I don't agree that we should allow any disruption to anyone just because of tertiary studies, because the system must be fair to all. In this regard, I do not agree that PSC scholars should enjoy disruption unless there is an operational need for the SAF to do so.

As for medical students, there is such an operational need. Let's go back 20 years. When I enlisted, both medical and dental students were allowed disruption because we needed medical and dental officers in the army. This special treatment granted to these two groups has always been a source of grief and about 10 years ago, the policy was revised.

Dental services are outsourced to private dentists, supplemented by a small number of regular dental officers. Obviously we don't have enough DOs but we decided we do not need so many dentists anyway and so dental students were no longer allowed to disrupt.

What about medical students? A proportion of medical students who perform well enough during BMT to make it to OCS are allowed to disrupt and finish medical school, so that when they return they can be trained as medical officers. The rest were not allowed to disrupt and complete their NS as rifleman, signaller etc.

As a result, we have a rather morbid situation where there are doctors who are consultants in the hospital but do their ICT as riflemen. In view of the dire shortage of medical officers (there is a gradual attrition over the years due to downgrading, emigration etc), there have been recent attempts to make these rifleman doctors medical officers. But by then they are reservists and you cannot call them back for more than 40 days a year. The hospitals are also unable to let so many of these doctors go at the same time for MOCC. And how do you reduce the 9-month OCS course to 40 days? They have tried to do that, but from what I hear the results are far from satisfying and of course, they only solve the reservist MO shortage.

Therein lies the problem. For operational reasons, we need medical officers both in active and reservist service. You can train someone to be a driver during his 2 years of NS but you cannot do that (nor can the SAF afford to) train doctors during that period of time. The only solution is to allow some of them to disrupt for medical school so that the SAF can properly operate.

If you have a solution that does not involve disruption and yet provide the SAF with its medical officers, I am sure MINDEF will be happy to hear it.

vito_corleone SG

pull ups train arm and finger strength so the bastard can play better piano Laughing

vito_corleone SG

if citizens love their nation they will take up arms automatically and enthusiastically without the government having to force them, but if citizens feel no connection or bond with the nation we end up with a singapore-ns scenario where so many people from pre-enlistees to ex-reservists all grumbling and moaning about how lousy the country is. in this case, ns is not at fault, it is the country's leaders who have failed to win the hearts and minds of a people they so readily exploit Laughing

macjoe SG

The arguments for and against are pretty even.

Let's have a poll.

I say defer.

Cool

LazerLordz SG

This is one of the elements of truth that certain segments fear to approach.

mfscrewu SG

Originally posted by BillyBong:
He jolly well might not be coming back? Are you so quick to brand him a defaulter already? For all you know he might jolly well come back to serve too. Have you considered that as well?

At the end of the day, can anyone ensure that he will be back to serve? That is the million dollar question. Assuming that he is allowed to defer his NS for his violin plucking lessons. Few years down the road, he decided not to come back, so who is going to be responsible for that? Are we just going to resign and accept the fact that another one just defaulted on NS? I may be quick to think of him as a defaulter, but ain't you as quick to brand him as a non-defaulter? You might be able to give him the benefit of the doubt, but not me, I am a pragmatist. If such a situation can be avoided, then it should.

Originally posted by BillyBong:
With music qualifications, do you doubt that he cannot find a niche market in Singapore to promote music and the arts? Are you comparing the relatively PALTRY PAY of musicians against the MONEYBAGS of investment bankers, litigation lawyers, CEOs of MNCs etc? How narrow-minded is that? There is more to just earning big bucks. and there are certainly more opportunities in the west, where music is well-established. But shouldn't we start somewhere? How else should we progress?

Frankly, in my opinion with a classical music degree, the prospect in the West is better. I can't even recall any classical musician that is based in Singapore who have made it good. I have never compared the salaries of different professions, that's your assumptions. What I am comparing is the availability of classical music career in Singapore right now. The situation might change, but till it does, I stand by my thinking. You might be the arty-farty person, but not me. Progress in our society, that's definitely a yes, but not at the expense of compromising national defense. An additional man in the orbat is an additional fighting chance.

Originally posted by BillyBong:
Your single comment of 'while he is plucking his violin strings' displays abject contempt for a fellow Singaporean. In times of war, will you be one of those who selectively chooses WHO TO AID IN BATTLE even if we all wear the same uniform? What a pity then that in such times, instead of being selfless, you choose to remain selfish.

I have already mentioned that I am a selfish person. All human beings at one time or another are. Heck, I don't even know this violin boy that well, so give me the reasons why I should do his share of defense? Why don't you offer yourself to SAF to take up his duties instead when the s.hit hit the fan.

Originally posted by BillyBong:
You already mentioned that no one will lose sleep if Ike serves at a later date, so why express your insistence that he must serve NS FIRST? Will the Curtis Institute reserve his place for 2 years? Do you think every tertiary institution in the world is run in the same manner as our local Universities?

If curtis is unwilling to bend their school rules, why can't he look for other schools? It is not the school that make the musician, but the person himself. If he is really so good at plucking violin strings, then all the more he should prove to the world that no matter where ever he ended up in, he should be able to shine. If he is unable to do that, doesn't that again question his musical 'talents'? I never thought that every tertiary institution in the world is run in the same manner as our local Universities, you assume that I did.

Originally posted by BillyBong:
You should tone down your judgemental comments and instead reflect on the possible opportunities of how best a balanced decision can be made. Imagine Curtis Institue getting a "sorry, NS first" response to their invitation

If that is really an institution of quality, then it should be able to understand the reasons why violin boy have to serve first. Unless most of their instructors are old men/women who are about to kick the bucket in the next 2 years, then perhaps that might explain their music teachings is more important than the national defense of a country. Mr. Green

What we (those who are against him deferring NS) are asking for is just fairness. If he is allowed to defer for his violin plucking lessons, so must others who wants to take up tertiary courses before serving NS. What about people with a genuine family problems, shouldn't they allow to defer NS as well. By this alone, this will result in a whole lot of other problems and pray tell what is the solution then. I am not saying there is no better solution in the future, but currently the best one is to refuse deferrment for everybody.

iveco SG

Go google and search for number of countries that have completely abolished death sentences. Even those convicted of treason are spared the noose, even if it is a military offence.

Fatum SG

do you understand the difference between treason and desertion ? ... Rolling Eyes

deserters would be shot ... anywhere in the world ... it's the only way you can run a military ...

as for treason ... I would gladly have them shot too ... and certainly many countries have that ... would you like to google about that ? ...

iveco SG

IMO, most deserters want no part in any conflict. I don't expect them to go over to the enemy if their wish is to remain neutral.

IIRC, the Swedes do not hang anyone for treason anymore. I have the document regarding abolitionist regimes somewhere at home.

Fatum SG

ah ... as I suspected ... the land of blonde hair and blue eyes eh ? ...

you still haven't answered my questions ... do you understand the difference between treason and desertion ? ....

no body, no country, no society wants any part in any conflict ... ourselves included ... neutrality is one thing, but to run and hide in the face of the enemy is a whole other matter altogether ....

you have served NS too didn't you ? ...

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