Sharia Law has no place in a free democracy

last SG · 2005-08-25T12:40:04+00:00

you are right in trying to see from both side. When got discussion only from one side? All races and religion is equal. if muslim gets something from the go...

LazerLordz SG

If it does not assault international sensibilities and does not contravene the Constitution.Do you think the whole society should move from a western liberal society to a Syariah based one on the whims of a small community?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by LazerLordz:
If it does not assault international sensibilities and does not contravene the Constitution.Do you think the whole society should move from a western liberal society to a Syariah based one on the whims of a small community?

Is it not ridiculous when such demands are made - especially from a small community of MIGRANTS, whose arrival was based on the charity of the HOST COUNTRY ?

Is it not even more ridiculous that prior to their selecting this HOST COUNTRY, these MIGRANTS should be AWARE that their selected HOST COUNTRY has a dominant RELIGION that is totally dissimilar to that of MIGRANT'S religion ?

Is it also not ridiculous that knowing the HOST COUNTRY has different sets of cultural, social and political values that will be alien to the values of the MIGRANTS, they should still decide to arrive at the HOST COUNTRY ?

The problem is that after two or three generation of residence in the HOST COUNTRY, will the off-spring considered to be MIGRANTS still, or are they already considered NATURALISED residents - either with permanent residency status, or granted Citizenships ?

Are these second or third generation EMIGRANTS entitled to the FULL PRIVILEGES and PROTECTION of the Constitution ?

If these second or third generation EMIGRANTS demand the full Privileges and Protection of the Constitution, should it not be emcumbent on themselves to ensure that their cultural, social, religious and political value systems should be compatible with the Constitution of the ADOPTED COUNTRY ?

oxford mushroom SG

Sure, provided the small community can persuade the majority to their cause. Alternatively, one nation with two systems a la Hong Kong can be tried. In short, have a referendum and let the people decide how the Constitution should look...

LazerLordz SG

Just for the record.That was a rhetorical question and you guys should know my stand on this.

It's an absolute farce. Evil or Very Mad

Airforceone SG

In Singapore, male Muslim citizens can legally marry up to four wives according to the sharia. This is not a political issue at all. For matters relating to Muslim marriage, divorce and inheritance, sharia laws apply. The rest NO.

iveco SG

But does it allow a Muslim woman to file for divorce if her husband marries again without her consent?

modgurl SG

Oh my... It's all about interpretation isn't it? What seems to be good for some may not be good to others. Laws (constitutional, religious, etc) are set by man. Naturally, there's bound to be unfairness, errors, etc even though the initial intention was good. Man also has this tendency to resist change. If man are more open to update these laws to fit modern situations, then we'd see less of these conflicts that we see (or read) everyday in the news.

In addition, I agree that the image of Islam is unfortunately intertwined with Arabic culture. I'm a modern Sunni Muslim young woman. I don't believe that by wearing a Hijab or being less outspoken will make me a better Muslim. Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is a faith that's within your heart. It's not about what you wear, which buildings you pray in, what food you eat... On Judgement Day, it's just you and God.

In conclusion, Shariah law can exist within the Constitutional laws. I don't see why it can't considering that the Constitutional laws of some countries (namely USA) were based on (or influenced by) Christianity. If governments aren't open-minded about it, it just smacks of double standards doesn't it?

***Just my humble but honest opinions***

Atobe SG

Originally posted by modgurl:
Oh my... It's all about interpretation isn't it? What seems to be good for some may not be good to others. Laws (constitutional, religious, etc) are set by man. Naturally, there's bound to be unfairness, errors, etc even though the initial intention was good. Man also has this tendency to resist change. If man are more open to update these laws to fit modern situations, then we'd see less of these conflicts that we see (or read) everyday in the news.

Laws are made by the Community, and guided by those in the Community who are 'more influential' through the POWERS from the 'Gun', or from the POWERS accumulated by NUMBERS.

It is a natural process that those who are STRONGER in Society will DOMINATE the WEAKER ones - unless a strong sense of EQUALITY and JUSTICE remain in the minds of the STRONGER personalities privileged to be in POWER.

Has this happen in some societies, where women is subjugated and treated worse than the treatment afforded to criminals ?

:
In addition, I agree that the image of Islam is unfortunately intertwined with Arabic culture. I'm a modern Sunni Muslim young woman. I don't believe that by wearing a Hijab or being less outspoken will make me a better Muslim. Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is a faith that's within your heart. It's not about what you wear, which buildings you pray in, what food you eat... On Judgement Day, it's just you and God.

Your claim to be a 'SUNNI' Muslim has unfortunately confirmed the "image of Islam is unfortunately intertwined with Arabic culture " - why would a Singaporean Muslim identify himself/herself with the Arabic tribe or sect of Islamic practitioners ?

Does ISLAM allow for any deviations and differences in the Islamic tenets, principles, and concepts as determined by the different Arabic sects or tribes ?

Why will a South-east Asian Muslim get involved in the complexities of Middle-eastern tribal-religious practice of Islam ?

Originally posted by modgurl:
In conclusion, Shariah law can exist within the Constitutional laws. I don't see why it can't considering that the Constitutional laws of some countries (namely USA) were based on (or influenced by) Christianity. If governments aren't open-minded about it, it just smacks of double standards doesn't it?

***Just my humble but honest opinions***

Can the Shariah Law co-exist with any Constitutional Laws of a Modern Democracy, when the Shariah Law place so much restrictions that - for all intent and purpose - do not recognised the LEGAL RIGHTS of WOMEN ?

Islamic Laws
http://www.al-islam.org/laws/

BadzMaro SG

Religion itself can never be controlled or be part of the governing body. The war of the Crusades has been a good lesson in history when Religion is law. Simple.. full stop. Happens now when one side is governed by religion.. any opposing ideals will be intepreted as ideals against thier religion n therefore it becomes a Jihad for the muslims.

Elfred SG

I thought she should ask the Almighty for such... advice. Mr. Green

Ie. since the great phophet is no longer around... for hundreds of years.

Gauze SG

The Muslim wife isnt compelled to accept sharing her husband with another women. She has the liberty to divorce, and like any other marriage laws, she can annul it if, simply, she isnt happy in her marriage. What more, she is entitled to demand being a full fledge tai-tai! Haha, really. Her husband is obligated to maintain her financially in every manner, if not, he is answerable to law or it can become a reason of divorce. And this is while the wife is fully exempted from spending her income on her family (shes financially independant), she retains her accumulated wealth and her husband is forbidden to take any claim of her assets or pester her to contribute for the household expenses. "Whats yours is mine and whats mine is mine.", as some would say. Embarassed

Thats a part of the extent where the Muslim wife can assert her rights in marriage, but of course, it doesn't lead to that way and mutual consideration takes place instead.

Ugh, Ill reply with another website in return.
- Some Notions of Women's Rights - In answering the question at hand we will to embark upon several points, before any direct engagement with it. Therein, the difference between the existence of such rights in theory and practice within the Muslim world - a condition that is not particular to it, solely - and the cultural distortions of women under Islam must be concentrated upon.
Link here.

Atobe SG

Originally posted by Gauze:
Quote from post by iveco

But does it allow a Muslim woman to file for divorce if her husband marries again without her consent?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Muslim wife isnt compelled to accept sharing her husband with another women. She has the liberty to divorce, and like any other marriage laws, she can annul it if, simply, she isnt happy in her marriage. [b]What more, she is entitled to demand being a full fledge tai-tai! Haha, really. Her husband is obligated to maintain her financially in every manner, if not, he is answerable to law or it can become a reason of divorce. And this is while the wife is fully exempted from spending her income on her family (shes financially independant), she retains her accumulated wealth and her husband is forbidden to take any claim of her assets or pester her to contribute for the household expenses. "Whats yours is mine and whats mine is mine.", as some would say. Embarassed

Thats a part of the extent where the Muslim wife can assert her rights in marriage, but of course, it doesn't lead to that way and mutual consideration takes place instead. [/b]

While Islamic attempt to serve equality and justice to the Women in their community, events have always shown this to be to the contrary.

The infamous incident of the hapless Pakistani women, who was subject to 'tribal rules' in an area of Pakistan that is supposed to be steep in Islamic teachings - shows clearly the impossibility of Islamic Laws changing the Muslim Society.

Even during the strict rule of the Talibans in Afghanistan, where the Shariah Laws were followed to the last dot, discriminations towards the Women were ruthless - despite the teachings and guidance of Islam and the Shariah Law.

Originally posted by Gauze:
Quote from post by Atobe:

Can the Shariah Law co-exist with any Constitutional Laws of a Modern Democracy, when the Shariah Law place so much restrictions that - for all intent and purpose - do not recognised the LEGAL RIGHTS of WOMEN ?
Islamic Laws
http://www.al-islam.org/laws/
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ugh, Ill reply with another website in return.
- Some Notions of Women's Rights - In answering the question at hand we will to embark upon several points, before any direct engagement with it. Therein, the difference between the existence of such rights in theory and practice within the Muslim world - a condition that is not particular to it, solely - and the cultural distortions of women under Islam must be concentrated upon.
Link here.

The intent of the Islamic intellectuals concerning the interpretations of the Shariah Laws is towards re-interpretation to suit the modern and progressive evolution witnessed and experienced by their Societies and / or Commuities.

Unfortunately, such progressive Intellectual discourse are seldom accepted nor recognised by the Islamic Conservatives, who are puritan hardliners, with a determination of implementing the Shariah Laws on all countries with a large concentration of Muslims in the Population.

Shariah Laws demand good Muslims to follow its tenets and guidance to the last letter - can there be any 'IFs' and 'BUTs' ?

Until the Islamic Progressive Intellectuals and Dogmatic Conservatives come to some form mutual understanding on the necessity to make Shariah Laws relevant in the MODERN WORLD of the Twenty-First Century, it is unlikely that the Shariah Laws - as it is written and required interpretation - can be accepted into any society with Democratic Values (in the Western Form ) , that are alien to the Shariah Laws.

84mmrr SG

Muslim countries themselves do not have good records in treating their minorities well. In Egypt, churches were burnt and Chirstians communities being attacked. Iran is also another famous country for assasinating christian leaders.

It's a known fact in Indonesia that church buildings are torn down with the excuse that they are not safe and no new buildings are allowed to be built. That's why they use their house for religious activities. Now, there are reports that muslim extremists are forcing these chirstians to stop their activities in their own house.

Even in Brunei, if you claim to be Christians, you can forget about getting promotion as civil servent.

Comparing the way muslim govts treating minority religions in their countries, I think Muslims are generally very well treated in most western countries & US.

Muslims should ask themselves are they being kind and tolerant towards others before complaining about others violating their rights.

Gauze SG

It is indeed a sad reality in some of the Muslim world, Atobe and 84mmrr. Sad

Anyway, the contemporary intellectuals arent reinterpreting the Shari'ah laws. It cannot be reinterpreted because it must grow afresh, as is when it was presented with an illuminative value and objective truth. A good example is in the webpage I linked to. That is different from a mere tainted immitativeness of the religious bigots who manifests such veracity according to their own needs while claiming religious validity. For them, the Shari'ah in the first place is a utilitarian receptacle. I really hope too, there will be change.

kheldorin SG

So Australian Muslims should suffer because of the acts of other Muslims countries? Isn't that the same reasoning the Bali bombers use to attack innocent Western tourists? It's not as if the Muslim world is one entity, that they are all homogenous and they all agree on the same things.

Because of the terrorists attacks, Muslims in Western countries are suffering from social backlash and discrimination. A guy got shot in Britain just because he looked like Middle Eastern... Exclamation Not to mention the countless of detainess in Guantánamo Bay.

kheldorin SG

And where is change supposed to come from? When all everyone does is to focus on the division instead of building bridges. When everyone thinks that there is no room for compromise. When everyone is focused on the extremists. When the voice of the moderates are being drowned. When everyone thinks that each other are inflexible and unreasonable. When everyone justify their current actions on past actions. All this does is to widen the division and alienate each other. Damn ridiculous.

What harm is there in setting up a Syariah Law in Australia that is compatible with their consituition? All the arguments are of the form of "they are the minority and emigrants so they should not make any demands". OR "they should not have the rights because other Muslims in other countries also do not treat minorities well." What?! Where are the real disadvantages??! We don't even know the Laws that they want to be implemented. If the Australian Muslims are unreasonable in the implementation of the Syariah Law, then fine, they deserve it. But they are not even given the chance to prove their case.

Do some negotiations, find out which areas of the Syariah Law the Australian Muslims want to be implemented and then propose what can be done about it. Some social surveys and social research would also be helpful. Do not outright reject it and alienate them. At the very least, appear accommodating even though at the back of your mind you know that you are going to reject them. That's just smart leadership to prevent unrest.

Anyway, the the thread is veering way off-topic. Discussion about the Australian Muslims blew up into an attack of the Muslim world in general. Kinda reminds me of arguments with my mum. One argument on a single topic would would grow into thousands of past arguments on thousands of topics , from the day I was born till now. Rolling Eyes

Gauze SG

Ah, yes.. we’ve lost focus. I was saying in reply to the backwardness of some countries. I’m together in hand with your view.

LittleTiger SG

Fully agreed.... this is what i wanted to say...
They even cancelled or hide their christmas celebration just to accommodate minorities.

I dont see any other religion which is minor in size have created problem in other country. They are already brainwash not to tolerate others back in Arab.
They got one inch, they ask for 1 thousand more.

Again, we are lucky and happy to have the muslim community in spore where we can be great friends and live together.

84mmrr SG

Why do I make those statements? Because whenever muslims complained about not fairly treated, they forgot that muslim govts were cruel to others as well. They are not even giving others the basic rights. Bush made grave mistakes in Iraq & Guantánamo Bay but are muslims really suffernig badly in US?

I don't think that oz muslims are suffering in any way. There will always be racists in oz. If I migrate there, I'll be treated as 2nd class citizens as well.

As for UK, police are guarding mosque. Yes, UK police over-reacted and we'll see if they will learn from their mistakes. Most UK uni have muslim prayer rooms in their campus. When I was studying in UK, a church was being sued by muslims for a banner that says" Jesus is the only way to God". My questions to you is this: What more do you expect?

84mmrr SG

My apology for being so vocal. It was not intended to be bashing muslim world. But I just feel that muslims must realise that they can be victims and oppressors as well. I'm trying to present the other side of the stories.

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