Local lose to foreign degree holder even holding same cert !

last SG · 2005-04-25T16:50:24+00:00

who are you gonna vote if you dont vote for PAP? our opposition? give me someone good enough!!

LazerLordz SG

Our Foreign Talents policy is a fallacy.And they are squeezing us out of Middle Management.The can do the menial jobs which dislike or they can come and contribute as real talents which we do not have.

Wahahaha, is the government trying to say we lack engineer and managers?Depressing wages will not increase profits and productivity, as there are other factors to be brought in besides wage factors.It's also about product quality and inherent value.Artificially making things cheaper than what they are will not solve anything.

CX SG

Depressing wages DO increase profits. productivity is more tricky... if u define productivity as the amt of work done within a given time, then yes, depressing wages may not help much.

however, if u define productivity as the amt of work done within a given amt of wages, then yes, paying lower wages to a foreign worker (not talent, worker) can possibly increase it.

if u just waltz into a production floor, u will most likely hear the the bosses complain that for the amt of OT the pay to a shift here, they can probably make a shift in china work OT for a month Rolling Eyes yes, they're THAT cheap.

they're squeezing out locals as middle management here? how come i wasn't aware of it? Laughing how come i still have a job and most of my collegues are not foreigners???

don't cultivate a "victim" mentality... if a foreigner was selected over a singaporean, we should be asking why... is it cos we're no longer worth the money? is it cos others are offering the same skills for less money?

and what if they're paying foreigners the same amount or more than they pay to a local? then why are we not getting those opportunities? could it be that we're not making ourselves marketable or relevent?

dragg SG

employers who refuses to offer jobs to locals or older workers are equally guilty.

hmsg SG

Agreed with CX's views. The context needs to be right. For the higher income jobs, it is not just about paper qualification. The network u bring along is vital... such as getting MNCs to invest in Singapore which could create more jobs.

For the middle mgt jobs, well, it should be open competition. To make a general statement like all being equal BUT the foreigner gets "more" equal is flawed. perhaps that got to do with being able to "market" ourselves better? or to articulate better?

For the lower income type of jobs, of course it would be reasonable to offer locals if all being equal. The problem is we have this "social" status mentality that constrains us to not taking up. Not to mention that we "demand" higher pay to support our expenses...

bumbleb SG

I would put productivity as a function of the amount of output (revenue) per unit of input (labour, equipment, and capital). So yes, one can raise productivity by lowering the cost of wages.... if one was to talk in pure economic terms without looking at the social impact of mass importing foreign nationals to take over a portion of local jobs.

For the 'victim' part, I think that there are very few jobs held by Singaporeans that cannot be easily replaced by a cheaper foreign labourer. Civil servants are protected for one. Professions like Law, Medicine etc are another. If your immediate work place is completely populated by Singaporeans, good for you - but there are plenty of companies that are hiring foreign labour cheaply. Even when they do not do so, they can outsource to third parties who can then lower their cost through cheaper foreign labour. Just because you are not a victim now does not mean that you are forever safe.

I work in the financial sector, and in my company there is only a small handful of Singaporean programmers, roughly double that in Malaysians, and the rest is either from India or China. Some of my friends reports a similar picture, though slightly less drastic. Our backroom operations, support staff etc are mixed with foreign workers too. My department were looking for a new guy, and my boss actually went and ask me if I mind working with an Indian/China guy as they were priced much lower than the locals.

How much are Singaporeans worth? I think the more appropriate question to ask is : how low can a Singaporean accept for his wages given the cost of living here? I would imagine that one can accept significantly lower wages if one have the option to double it when one crosses the causeway, or triple or more by flying back to China or India.

Ultimately, there are many skill sets that are in high demand. There are skill sets which have great international mobility too. But it is a fact that not everyone can get such, and not everyone is at an age where mobility still exists.

I think it is insensitive to laugh of the fate of older/lesser skilled Singaporean workers, and blame them when the government is opening the gates to workers from lower cost of living countries. The option for retraining is limited by the alternative employment opportunities available, and these are strongly affected by the volume of foreign investments coming in.

pearlie27 SG

posted by CX:
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Of course not all the local middle management will be squeezed out. There are still some blessed ones like u mah!

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If Singaporeans losing jobs to foreigners with the same skill because of lower pay not considered as victims of FT policy, then what? Sacrificial lambs?

posted by hmsg
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Sir, are u some big gun from the EDB or some minister who can get the MNC to invest in Singapore? If yes, we the humble Singaporeans would be very grateful to u.

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For the lower income type of jobs, of course it would be reasonable to offer locals if all being equal. The problem is we have this "social" status mentality that constrains us to not taking up. Not to mention that we "demand" higher pay to support our expenses...>>

wow! This sounded so much like the govt speaking leh!

how come the middle mgt jobs need to open to competition but not the lower income ones har? Is it cos locals only qualify to do lower income jobs leh?

And hor which middle mgt ppl will happily accept a cleaner job har? Mayb u?

CX SG

Originally posted by pearlie27:

Of course not all the local middle management will be squeezed out. There are still some blessed ones like u mah!

am i a norm or an exception??? grow up... unemployment is at an all time high of *gasp* 5% ??? what does that mean? that 95% of us are still busy, productive and relevant.

If Singaporeans losing jobs to foreigners with the same skill because of lower pay not considered as victims of FT policy, then what? Sacrificial lambs?

no need to get all emotional here. it depends on the job. low end labour intensive industries are gone for good! nobody could have stopped china or india from coming into the picture.

of course the production lines here need to have some foreign workers... a 100% singapore staffed line would cause their costs to shoot through the roof.

as for white collar jobs, again depends on the industry. for IT, seriously... its hard cos again, no one could imagine the amazing progress the indians have made in that direction... really quite lan lan...

Sir, are u some big gun from the EDB or some minister who can get the MNC to invest in Singapore? If yes, we the humble Singaporeans would be very grateful to u.

are u blind or illiterate? he was talking about high-level jobs... CEO and such... u think any ah mao ah kow can sit there is it?

now i don't believe in having an ang moh there just for the sake of having an ang moh there. but if that ang moh is really something and can bring in a joint-venture that pumps in millions into the local economy, truth be told i don't care if he's ang moh or botak...

wow! This sounded so much like the govt speaking leh!

how come the middle mgt jobs need to open to competition but not the lower income ones har? Is it cos locals only qualify to do lower income jobs leh?

And hor which middle mgt ppl will happily accept a cleaner job har? Mayb u?

why must compete? because its there whether u like it or not. u cannot lock them out because they'll just go elsewhere, sell their labour just as cheap, and make our neighbours more attractive to investors.

by the way... if i woke up tomorrow and lost my job, i will take on ANY job to make sure that i can at least survive and my family won't starve.

warehouse? workshop? casual labour? cleaner? its not as if i haven't done those work before anyway!

refuse to work as cleaner? why? too much pride ah? i'll rather work than beg. feel free to do it your way.

hmsg SG

Well I can only conclude that you should get rid of that "toxic" mental model & be open to views that could subsequently cause u to adopt a new position, a more "healthier" perhaps, than to lament all over the shop as though the govt owns u a living.... dun forget it can only "teach u how to fish", not "fish" for u....

Agressor SG

I am not against FT policy or competition. What I am concern is that when we bring in FTs which we cannot find in the locals, are there plans for these FTs to pass over their knowledge to the locals. I understand that in many countries, they have this condition stated before importing a FT.

Taking for example our table tennis team. First we imported Jing Jun Hong, then Lee Jia Wei followed by Zhang Xue Ling. I think we should use these FTs that we had imported to impart their skills to the Locals instead of bringing in more FTs and making them "Singapore". (BTW it was very embaressing to see "Singapore" Sportsmen / Women who do not know how to sing the national anthem in the prize presentation.)

CX SG

Originally posted by Agressor:
I am not against FT policy or competition. What I am concern is that when we bring in FTs which we cannot find in the locals, are there plans for these FTs to pass over their knowledge to the locals. I understand that in many countries, they have this condition stated before importing a FT.

if that was ever articulated into policy, can it be ever enforced? how do we quantify that the FTs have "passed the knowledge on to the locals" ? we would be paying lips service to an untenable situation.

one thing that i have observed though... a collegue who was recently in vietnam commented that the vietnamese there are extremely eager to learn from him... be it looking over his shoulders while he worked, or asking questions when he speaks... there is no policy that states that he MUST teach the pple he worked with... he was there as a consultant and in fact, it was to his advantage that he kept most of his knowledge to himself.

the point is, he was incredibly impressed with the enthusiasm and curiousity of the pple he worked with. who's the winner here?

Taking for example our table tennis team. First we imported Jing Jun Hong, then Lee Jia Wei followed by Zhang Xue Ling. I think we should use these FTs that we had imported to impart their skills to the Locals instead of bringing in more FTs and making them "Singapore". (BTW it was very embaressing to see "Singapore" Sportsmen / Women who do not know how to sing the national anthem in the prize presentation.)

haha... this is one of my pet peeves as well... foreign sportsmen... its like we're buying the medals with hired guns instead of winning them... there is no pride in this.

but ultimately, how many singaporeans want to make a career out of sports? i think we have a long way to go in changing the mindset.

and again, u can have all the curiousity in the world and the most positive attitude imaginable... it still remains to be seen if u can actually absorb and apply what u have learnt... i think making a champion is 50% training and 50% talents... u can have the best training, but if u're not talented, it won't matter.

and that's what the FT program is about... talents.

mannovo SG

Originally posted by CX:
am i a norm or an exception??? grow up... unemployment is at an all time high of *gasp* 5% ??? what does that mean? that 95% of us are still busy, productive and relevant.

Statistic do not lie, but human dojust dont take everything that comes from ST. Singapore is at crossroad. We have opened too wide a door for so-called FTs into Singapore and Singaporeans are being displaced. The politicians have to realize that they are the gahment-elect to be the shepherd to tend the flocks and not the flocks of other pple, rit. Why do you then elect them, so that they can represent your interest rit and not FTs interest. Look around u, mfg is hollowing out, retail is dying, lifescience is still work-in-progress, whats left, casino and u need a scholar to tell u that.

Originally posted by CX:
no need to get all emotional here. it depends on the job. low end labour intensive industries are gone for good! nobody could have stopped china or india from coming into the picture.

of course the production lines here need to have some foreign workers... a 100% singapore staffed line would cause their costs to shoot through the roof.

as for white collar jobs, again depends on the industry. for IT, seriously... its hard cos again, no one could imagine the amazing progress the indians have made in that direction... really quite lan lan...

Yes, u r rit that low end jobs will flow out to India, China or even Vietnam.
So do we need to take care of foreign labourers or our own pple first. Many cleaners are foreign labours and there is no way Singaporeans can fight with them as they are on very low salariesit need an uplift to redesign jobs for Singaporeans at a competitive salary to reach a S$1,000 a month.
Secondly, in many sectors, manufacturing, IT, engineering, banking etc, u have tons of applicants from all over the world ie. Cambodian, Vietnamese, Mainland Chinese, Indians, Philippinos etc all applying for these jobs. All these pple have local addresses, so they are in Singapore already.
2 years ago, I have more than 300 applicants for a engineer position. More than half are foreigners. What happened to Singapore. Do we still have a place for our new graduates to be trained, a opportunity for them to learn new skillsets if all these jobs are taken by mediocre talents.
For example, if u r a programmer, u will lose your skillsets within a year or two, without practice. An Indian or Chinese programmer is willing to take home S$800 S$1000 while u r a new graduate, u will demand at least S$1500 S$1,800. So do u still a chance against these imported programmers, no way. So u will never get the chance to hone your skill, as simple as that.
I have interviewed some of these foreigners and by no means, these are FTs, sad to say.

Originally posted by CX:
are u blind or illiterate? he was talking about high-level jobs... CEO and such... u think any ah mao ah kow can sit there is it?

now i don't believe in having an ang moh there just for the sake of having an ang moh there. but if that ang moh is really something and can bring in a joint-venture that pumps in millions into the local economy, truth be told i don't care if he's ang moh or botak...

Look at the numbers. We have so-called FTs, golden handshake like :

1) John Olds, DBS Bank USD 5 million
2) Philippe something, DBS Bank USD 5 million
3) Barry White, Chartered Semi USD 27 million
4) Thomas Clout USD 21 million
Not to add on to their associates which they have brought into Singapore, all at taxpayers expenses. Its hell a lot of money.
Are these FTs, are they successful, u tell me.

What am I saying is that I am not against FTs, but the assessment and the results of these FTs are mediocre, if not, gahment will splash in the ST, propagating of their success and contribution to Singapore economy, as a justifications of their high pay. Have you heard any news of them..if yes, pls shareor they have packed their bags, gone back to their respective countries harvesting their good fortune for having such a generous gahment

Originally posted by CX:
why must compete? because its there whether u like it or not. u cannot lock them out because they'll just go elsewhere, sell their labour just as cheap, and make our neighbours more attractive to investors.

by the way... if i woke up tomorrow and lost my job, i will take on ANY job to make sure that i can at least survive and my family won't starve.

warehouse? workshop? casual labour? cleaner? its not as if i haven't done those work before anyway!

refuse to work as cleaner? why? too much pride ah? i'll rather work than beg. feel free to do it your way.

Question is, why are we treated like a second-class citizen in our own country. Yes, you may well be able to take it, working as a cleaner, good for you, but how would a new graduate feel, if the job opportunities are only taxi-drivers, cleaners and hawkersis there something wrong with Singapore or gahmentor should we take care of Singaporeans first and foremost, afterall, they are elected to do that.

Also, if a rising China gives you the opportunties to work n be part of the titantic growth, opportunities that u can see and also make money, would you be a cleaner in Singapore, or do we need a scholar to tell us tat. I am sure you knew the answer.

CX SG

we already know why mfg is hollowing out... and its not because of FTs...

retail isn't dying. i frankly don't know how u came to that conclusion.

life-science is work in progress. no denying it so lets not count chickens before they're hatched.

but aren't you forgetting something? what about service?

I have interviewed some of these foreigners and by no means, these are FTs, sad to say.

there is no argument here... some are really not that sharp... and it reflects the mindset of the employers who hire them as well...

but i see you poking holes at situations who are inherent in the work cycle of an employee. they are not problems caused by FTs per se.

programmers lose their relevence within 6 mths, not 2 yrs. that is the pace of IT nowadays. at its height in the 90s, a chip that intel rolls onto the production line is obsolete the moment it leaves it.

is the pace faster without FTs? no... so what's the point?

and we blame FTs for our own mediocrity? how does that work? are we world class if we only race within our own small pond?

what about Neil Montefiore of M1?

what about Terry Clontz? CEO of Starhub?

what about David Philbrick Conner? CEO of OCBC?

what about Paul Lawrence? CEO of HSBC Singapore?

What am I saying is that I am not against FTs, but the assessment and the results of these FTs are mediocre, if not, gahment will splash in the ST, propagating of their success and contribution to Singapore economy, as a justifications of their high pay. Have you heard any news of them..if yes, pls shareor they have packed their bags, gone back to their respective countries harvesting their good fortune for having such a generous gahment

i think any sensible adult can see that there are good ones and there are crappy ones...

i would fight for what i feel i deserve rather than blame the gov't for everything.

Also, if a rising China gives you the opportunties to work n be part of the titantic growth, opportunities that u can see and also make money, would you be a cleaner in Singapore, or do we need a scholar to tell us tat. I am sure you knew the answer.

if we can tap the growth and benefit, of course we should be doing that. but is it the only choice? being a cleaner OR being a millionaire?

frankly, are our graduates losing out? are there lots of them out there not getting their dues? if they're not, why? are they absolutely brilliant but not given a chance? plain unlucky perhaps? or are they simply mediocre and unemployable?

pearlie27 SG

originally posted by hmsg

Well I can only conclude that you should get rid of that "toxic" mental model & be open to views that could subsequently cause u to adopt a new position, a more "healthier" perhaps, than to lament all over the shop as though the govt owns u a living.... dun forget it can only "teach u how to fish", not "fish" for u....

may i know what is a more "healthier" position? a politically correct position? or a denial mode position?

i where got lament all over the shop. i merely asked questions to seek the truth or mayb like what u said "to adopt a more healthier position"

i never expect the govt to teach me how to fish or fish for me, i learn how to fish myself.

pearlie27 SG

originally posted by CX
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I where got emotional leh? u're the one what!

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But our govt can stop them from coming to Singapore leh.

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oh ... this is very emotional.....

I no blind or illiterate but mayb not so clever like u lah. actually hor i wasn't talking to u in this instance why u so worked up one?

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U mean all the other jobless Singaporeans had starved or allowed their family members to starve to death rather than to take on any job har? Tell me who har!

btw, were we not told that we are living in a first world how come we only have jobs such as cleaners, security guards, hawkers and cabbies for our mid-mgt ppl har?

hmsg SG

ah... perhaps I was too quick to response without thinking through... apologies if that was the case.

no question asked is bad... juz like no idea is bad if we want to encourage people to be creative....

glad that u r a fisherman.... i am trying to be one.....

drawer SG

Haha,u think other countries so easy for u to steal their jobs from them ah?They are not as stupid as our government ok,they give all the job privilages to their own citizens first,if got vacancy or those lousy jobs which their ppl dont want to work one,then they give to u foreigners.

Agressor SG

Not only do they protect their locals, like I said in my previous postings, even if they give you a job, they will make sure that you Pass down knowledge to their locals.

Recently we have shifted our warehousing operations to Batam, and attached our business solution team there. In the contract, it was clearly stated that by 2 years, 95% of the work must be handed over to the locals.

CX talked about who is going to enforce, let me tell you, it should all be stated in the FTs policies. If the Indonesian government can do it, why can't we. Or maybe we can get a foreign talent for our PM and ministers.

chunyong SG

the more education u get, the more competition from foreign elites u get. hence, the mroe education u get, the less salary u can ask for due to extreme competition. end up u sign SAF, SPF....dats y got so many people wanna sign now....they can lower the pay by 10% and people will still sign, y ? cos outside hard to find job even if u have a decent degree. y is dat so ? cos foreign elites ask for less salary cos their family not based here, cost of living lower. our family all based here, the 4-5 rm flat alone can make u slog for a decade....let alone car, kids and parents.

CX SG

Originally posted by pearlie27:

I where got emotional leh? u're the one what!

ok lor... then this is an unemotional, objective discussion... thats good.

But our govt can stop them from coming to Singapore leh.

no we can't. cos the ultimate goal is FTA with all these markets. and the free movement of people and goods is the main principle of any FTA.

not to mention that if u didn't have some of these foreigners keeping costs down, we may stand to lose more cos Sg is seriously too expensive when compared to the emerging markets around us.

u can already apply for a job in the US and face minimum restrictions and discrimination cos of the FTA. do we care that they don't like us, accuse us of stealing their jobs and treating us like 2nd class human beings? i say show me the money... i don't care what u call me. i can laugh my way to the bank.

oh ... this is very emotional.....

I no blind or illiterate but mayb not so clever like u lah. actually hor i wasn't talking to u in this instance why u so worked up one?

ok... apologies given where its due.

wow! machiam LKY speaking leh!

i'm not a big fan of LKY. i only listen when he speaks sensibly. me and my friends still crack rude jokes about the time he said that grads should hump each other and breed smart babies.

U mean all the other jobless Singaporeans had starved or allowed their family members to starve to death rather than to take on any job har? Tell me who har!

any decent individual wouldn't. but someone who was too narrow minded, status conscious and choosy would do just that.

btw, were we not told that we are living in a first world how come we only have jobs such as cleaners, security guards, hawkers and cabbies for our mid-mgt ppl har?

we don't only have those jobs. a fresh grad has a decent spread of jobs to apply for and choose from. its not easy to score one first time... need interview experience, need the right exposure and sometimes, the right connections. but the fact that we complain about this sometimes shows that many of us have been spoilt by the easy job market of the 80s and 90s where company came to grads and practically begged them to join. it was an unrealistic situation that doesn't happen anywhere else anyway!

the point is, the structurally unemployed (midle aged, average education, obsolete skill sets) have less choices and can't afford to be too choosy. i know its hard for someone with a flat and a family to be happy about taking on a job that pays much less, but thats the reality.

so what's your point? that grads have no jobs or that the structurally unemployed can't find jobs? the first point is blatantly untrue. the second point is irrelevent to this discussion.

pearlie27 SG

originally posted by CX

<t remember leh!

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