singapore No.1 in EXECUTIONS

last SG · 2004-01-21T21:46:06+00:00

yes, 2 wrongs don't make a right, but to leave the initial wrong as is, would be wrong too.

CX SG

Question something i missed or something someone else misunderstood

KamenRider SG

when the trap door is opened and the person falls through it, his spine is snapped by the rope around his neck from his own body weight. he is dead in the nano second. finished. no pain.

death by hanging is in fact one of the most humane way for death sentence.

NathanG5 SG

someone is faking stupidissmart nick..the fake one is smartistupid

pikamaster SG

Tell me, which is less cruel: drowning a cat or beating it to death?

the pikamaster

pikamaster SG

i m not asking 4 anarchism. you are one who is living in the Qing Dynasty if you still think that. GRacious SOciety NOT EQUAL to anarchism.
pple who believe that are those who fear change., Freedom is not equal to anarchism. Besides, we are not even talking abt freedom. we r talking abt the death penalty. n forgiving someone deos not lead to anarchism. Yes, of course, the murderer has to be punnished, but perhaps by a life sentence.
Juz because I dun like the death penalty does not mean that i treat every law as crap. definitely, i m not 1 hu would "piss over the law", since i recognize its intrinsic value.
n lucky for u, i m not as hardline leftist as some pple at SIntercom. u dare tosay that at SIntercom, n some pple will start f***king u off. so be careful wad u say, wherever it is...
the pikamaster

claudetnt SG

pikamaster, please keep your cool, most of us respect you for your contributions. Do not fall into the trap and fall as low as some do!

CX SG

Australian denied rights in drug case: lawyer

Age, Melbourne
January 30, 2004
By Mark Baker
Asia Editor
SINGAPORE

LAWYERS defending a Melbourne salesman facing execution on heroin smuggling charges in Singapore yesterday called for the case to be thrown out after accusing police of denying his legal rights and mishandling the drugs allegedly seized from him.
The Singapore High Court was told that 23-year-old Nguyen Tuong Van was denied access to consular help and was not informed of his legal rights before giving police interviews in which he admitted carrying the drugs.

Lawyer Isaac Tito said that despite police rules requiring prompt notification of embassies when foreign nationals were arrested, Nguyen had been forced to wait 20 hours before meeting an official from the Australian High Commission.

"They knew he was an Australian citizen, but they did not offer him consular access before interviewing him and they didn't tell him he was not obliged to answer questions," Mr Tito said in his closing submission to the trial. "This evidence should be excluded."

Nguyen has pleaded not guilty to carrying about 396 grams of heroin during a stop in Singapore while flying from Cambodia to Melbourne in December last year.

Under Singapore law, hanging is mandatory for anyone convicted of carrying more than 15 grams of heroin.

The defence team presented detailed arguments that the mandatory sentencing policy for drug crimes breached the country's constitution and international law by imposing "cruel and inhuman" punishment and by denying judicial discretion.

But they said the police treatment of Nguyen and the handling of the evidence against him made the prosecution case unsound and the prospect of the death penalty unthinkable.

Mr Tito said a package of heroin allegedly found strapped to Nguyen's back as he prepared to board a Qantas flight to Melbourne, and another recovered from his hand luggage, had not been handled according to narcotics bureau regulations.

When the alleged drug parcels were returned after later chemical analysis, one was heavier and the other lighter than initial records and no explanation was given for the discrepancies.

"The prosecution has failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the exhibits were properly handled," Mr Tito told the court.

He argued that even if the court were to convict Nguyen, it would be wrong to apply the death penalty given the irregularities in the prosecution case.

"No capital offence can be made if there is no reliable evidence about the weight of the drugs," he said.

But prosecutors said there was no evidence that the drug exhibits had been tampered with and said Nguyen had confessed to carrying drugs in further police interviews made after he met with consular officials.

The case is continuing.

i have just one question despite all that supposed "uncertainties" about inconsistencies in the "procedures" or questions of whether the evidence had been handled "properly"...

just ONE question aside from all that judicial hanky panky and diplomatic obstruction.

did he, or did he NOT have more than 15 grams of heroin strapped to his back with masking tape?

cheese... pple sure like to split hair on the insignificant.

CenturionMBT SG

What you are asking for only exist in an Utopian society. You did not put into the account of the complexity of the human nature.When a barrier is removed, in this case death penalty, criminals will take the opportunity to make singapore a drug transit point. MAfias will form to take the opportunity to wreak havok in our society knowing that they won't need to bear any consequences. Tax payers will have to pay more to keep this hardcore criminals to jail. Is this what you call a gracious society. Certainly sounds like arnachy to me. Dun gimme those political bulls hit. Ultimately to achieve peace you must have control.Freedom and full human rights are just some intellecture bulls hit that some "smart" people write to dictate the world. So don't tell me the crap about forgoing capital punishments. In the end when everybody is given full rights,everybody will infringe into each other's rights.
One more thing, citicising somebody is simple. But to give a better solution is very difficult. So when somebody disagrees with your views, dun go around blowing off your steam.
Regards.

Atobe SG

Without going into the debate of the merits of the 'Death Penalty', it is very doubtful that by dropping the 'Death Penalty' there will be anarchy in Singapore.

There is more then enough legislations - piled one over another - to ensure that anarchy WILL NOT HAPPEN in Singapore.

The 'SUPER' and 'ALL ENCOMPASSING' Legislation in the arsenal of legislations that the Government can use is the INTERNAL SECURITY ACT - that allow them to detain anyone without trial, for an indefinite length of time.

The Government has shown itself willing to use this legislation, and has no political qualms in using it.

Will the MAFIA dare to enter Singapore and test the will of the Singapore Government ?

There is more to the debate than succumbing to this widely instilled idea of domestic anarchy as an alternative to the established way of life in Singapore.

It capitalize on the fear of the people, by presenting only one part of the argument, promote the concept loud enough to form cliches for the easy acceptance and consumption of the simple mind.

It smells heavily of a self-serving political agenda that perpetuate the existing political system in Singapore.

CenturionMBT SG

You can’t be sure about that. look at the former ussr. Their Mafia still thrived , even with the KGB going around.And without a heavy deterence such as death sentence, how are you going to ensure that drug traffickers will not make singapore their transit point? And besides as i said, Are we willing to spend money to shut such a large amount of supposedly deathrow criminals for life? Why spend on our precious resources on such people when we don’t even get to have pensions?

stupidissmart SG

About the internal security act, even places like America has implement in the form of the "patriot act". And the most recent use is to detain members of JI in singapore. If there is no ISA law, these JI members will be able to walk around freely after 2 days. When is the other time singapore has use ISA to hold people recently ?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

The problem is not that we have an ISA law… it is how it is used… or shall I say… abused…

CX SG

Originally posted by Atobe:

Without going into the debate of the merits of the 'Death Penalty', it is very doubtful that by dropping the 'Death Penalty' there will be anarchy in Singapore.

There is more then enough legislations - piled one over another - to ensure that anarchy WILL NOT HAPPEN in Singapore.

The 'SUPER' and 'ALL ENCOMPASSING' Legislation in the arsenal of legislations that the Government can use is the INTERNAL SECURITY ACT - that allow them to detain anyone without trial, for an indefinite length of time.

The Government has shown itself willing to use this legislation, and has no political qualms in using it.

u are quite correct in saying that the one thing that Sg does not lack, is legislation... some will in fact argue that we are being suffocated by law and that it insults the intelligence of the average singaporean to have laws covering everything from littering and jaywalking to oral sex.

there is indeed, a difference between a society where rule of law exists as opposed to one that rules BY law, which is what Sg looks to be.

but the very test of a law is not in its passing, but in its enforcement. and since we're talking about the death penalty, i think its not helpful to digress by talking about the ISA.

there has been tests to the judiciary's resolve to impose certain punishments... especially so when the cases involves foreigners. michael fay, flor contemplacion and a few others, especially when it involves australians, whose government is usually insistent that suspects will only be extradited if they do not face the death penalty. and the article i've posted above... drug trafficker with a pack of heroin strapped to his back, but already, a little storm brewing concerning procedures and the death penalty.

Will the MAFIA dare to enter Singapore and test the will of the Singapore Government ?

There is more to the debate than succumbing to this widely instilled idea of domestic anarchy as an alternative to the established way of life in Singapore.

i think there are valid fears of this... maybe not on the grand scale of the mafia taking over, but organised crime testing our resolve in there is profits to be made from it. in fact, it is already being tested. that's why u still have pple using changi airport as a transit point for drugs: because its connected and because it is believed that if u clear the draconian customs checks here, its easier the rest of the way.

It capitalize on the fear of the people, by presenting only one part of the argument, promote the concept loud enough to form cliches for the easy acceptance and consumption of the simple mind.

It smells heavily of a self-serving political agenda that perpetuate the existing political system in Singapore.

so what is the other part of the argument? do share. and what is the alternative?

Atobe SG

If my previous comments had included the merits and demerits of the 'Death Sentence' used for a variety of capital crimes - (as in kidnapping, murder, and fire arms offenses), and 'petty crimes' - (as in possessing 15 grams of 99 percent pure heroin), will it make any difference if the ISA and other legislations in the Penal Code is offered as an alternative to the 'Death Sentence' ?

Personally, I am in favor of the 'Death Penalty' but have my reservations in the manner that the Law is implemented that does not allow the Justice System to exercise any leeway or discretions in it decisions and awarding punishment.

Even the present Chief Justice lamented that his hands are tied by current Legislations that require him to impose some harsh sentencing, despite his better sense of justice, as the punishment is mandatory as legislated by Parliament.

The Government - the Executive and the Judiciary - has certainly shown no lack in their will to implement the Law, and to ensure that the Law will be enforced - as can be seen in the following events that have been short listed.

Although there has been that instance of reducing by one stroke from the mandatory four strokes of the cane sentenced onto Michael Fay for his vandalising behaviour; this leeway was given by PM GCT, in deferrence to the President of the USA, and in the light that the offense was minor and did not result in the loss of life.

This is in contrast to the Singapore Government denial of appeal from the Indonesian President Suharto, when he appealed for the lives of the two Indonesian saboteurs, whose dastardly act of placing time bombs at MacDonald House along Orchard Road, during Konfrontasi, took the lives of two Singaporean women.

There had been another incident in which a Japanese woman was found guilty of murder and hanged in Singapore, despite the appeals of clemency from the Japanese Government.

The use of Changi Airport - (or Bangkok's Dong Muang Airport, or any other airports in this region) - by drug couriers as a transit, and the numbers arrested does not indicate it as a test of our resolve.

The fact that these couriers do not even attempt to pass through IMMIGRATION and CUSTOMS to enter Singapore, but to transit through Changi Airport for connection to an onward flight, will show the success in the promotion of our Changi Airport as a regional Air Hub for onward connectivity.

so what is the other part of the argument? do share. and what is the alternative?

In my last post, which attracted your comment, I had indicated:-

There is more to the debate than succumbing to this widely instilled idea of domestic anarchy as an alternative to the established way of life in Singapore.

It capitalize on the fear of the people, by presenting only one part of the argument, promote the concept loud enough to form cliches for the easy acceptance and consumption of the simple mind.

It smells heavily of a self-serving political agenda that perpetuate the existing political system in Singapore.

The Government has constantly build on this repeated line that domestic anarchy will be the only result if there are no draconian Laws, and had drummed this message repeatedly to justify the plethora of legislations to impose their rule onto Singapore Society.

This was observed in your post that -

there is indeed, a difference between a society where rule of law exists as opposed to one that rules BY law, which is what Sg looks to be.

Could there not be the other part in which society can be TRUSTED to grow and blossom graciously, WITHOUT the DISTRUST and SUSPICION of every way that society will move ?

Can a society grow to be more gracious when its leaders are not gracious enough to trust the better judgment of the members of society from which they come from ?

Does not the 'rule BY law' reflect the insecurity and distrust of the leaders towards the unpredictable human behaviour of the society that elected them ?

CX SG

Originally posted by Atobe:

Could there not be the other part in which society can be TRUSTED to grow and blossom graciously, WITHOUT the DISTRUST and SUSPICION of every way that society will move ?

Can a society grow to be more gracious when its leaders are not gracious enough to trust the better judgment of the members of society from which they come from ?

Does not the 'rule BY law' reflect the insecurity and distrust of the leaders towards the unpredictable human behaviour of the society that elected them ?
[/b]

well, i should think, yes, on all those counts. and truth be told, it isn't just the powers-that-be. i find it hard to trust my fellow citizen sometimes. don't u?

and u're absolutely right that human behavior is unpredictable and i don't think ANY power holder will ever feel 100% secure and trusting. the problem as u pointed out, is that they may be able to use laws to solidify their position.

there is a gap between intent and purpose. many things are not 100% clear cut and a law might be like that... kinda hard to implement laws that are "surgical" in both their intents and purpose don't u think?

we have the ISA that allows the authorities the leeway of indefinitely detaining individuals in situations where it will not be feasible to put them on trial. some would argue that it places unbridled power into the hands of irresponsible power holders.

we have libel laws, like any other civilised society with a legal system based on the British common law, but these same laws have been abused by politicians to discredit and destroy their opponents.

the problem isn't with the law... its with the pple who have chose to abuse it and exploit its loopholes. try as we might. it will still be an imperfect and clumsy device compared to the depths of human depravity and ingenuity.

the death penalty for instance, which i still believe, have a deterrence effect and is necessary in light of the fact that our society is so imperfect. others have said that it promotes a "quick-fix" mentality towards crime, which is essentially a "social problem". i don't buy that liberal take on crime, society and punishment.

call me an unenlightened asiatic barbarian if u want, but i just don't think that the larger law-abiding society needs to be "responsible" for the criminals of that society, when these criminals have been irresponsible towards society in the first place.

if mandatory sentancing is hampering the abilities of the judges to serve justice, then i would agree, in light of the fact that the world is growing increasingly complex, that the laws needs to be re-interpreted and probably refined to allow the judges more leeway.

but in crimes such as murder and drug trafficking, i frankly don't see a conflict.

CenturionMBT SG

The first place, how much of the judiciary and legistrative system do you know yourself? Unless you really know it hundred percent from the back of your hand, then it is possible for you to comment about it. Otherwise all it is, it is just a bunch of hoo haa from a few limited sources you have read.
Anyway , back to the topic, are you sure trafficking 15 grams of 99% pure heroin is just a petty crime? This 15 % could potentially ruin a person's life. And in the end what rights does the drug traffiker have to destroy a peson's life?
Death sentance is a deterence. It is supposed to allow the drug pushers to have second thoughts before entering our country. And please, stick to the topic, don't involve politics here. When it comes to politics, even the most perfect judiciary system becomes dirty.

Atobe SG

No, from your well thought out post, you can hardly be an 'unenlightened asiatic barbarian', and my sympathies are with your position on the lamentable human weaknesses - not necessarily limited to our Singapore experience.

As much as I can accept that human behaviour is totally unpredictable, I must still learn to live with my neighbors and adapt myself to their indiosyncracies - as much as they have to adapt to those that I have.

TRUST must still be encouraged, and built upon, as one has to do so when we will depend on each other in times of war - as NSF men, my life will be in your hands, as much as yours is in mine; as well as that of our offsprings, if they happen to serve together in the future.

Atobe SG

If we restrict our opinions until we 'really know it hundred percent', then you and I are no longer in any position to comment on any topic on this earth until we are trained and learned enough to ensure 'hundred percent' of any topics we intend to comment on.

Are you in a position to do so ?

If not, what is your status in existing in this Forum ?

Anyway , back to the topic, are you sure trafficking 15 grams of 99% pure heroin is just a petty crime? This 15 % could potentially ruin a person's life. And in the end what rights does the drug traffiker have to destroy a peson's life?
Death sentance is a deterence. It is supposed to allow the drug pushers to have second thoughts before entering our country.

As a deterence, it seems to have limited effect, as after more then thirty years, groups of persons continue to be caught 'traffiking' in high quality drugs.

15 grams is about the weight of a 20 cent coin.

There are those who carry this amount for their own consumption, and have also been implicated to be couriers (or donkeys) - which will place them into the legal category that requires a mandatory death sentence.

Those who choose to be involved with drugs or its experimentation, have done so to ruin their own lives; as much as those who have chosen to be addicted to cigarettes.

And please, stick to the topic, don't involve politics here. When it comes to politics, even the most perfect judiciary system becomes dirty.

POLITICS forms the core in all human activities.

POLITICS is the art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.

POLITICS are the methods or tactics involved in managing a state or government - which will include Legislations implemented by the Judiciary System.

Words that are synonymous to the word 'POLITICS' will include:-

boss-ism, campaigning, civics, domestic affairs, electioneering, foreign affairs, government, government policy, internal affairs, jungle, legislature, political science, statecraft, statesmanship, stumping.

The Judiciary is a part of the Government AND the Political System, to put the legislations into effect, to implement the rules of law.

pikamaster SG

For drug trafficking, the point is that you might arrest an addict. As we know, addicts are usually forced by their addiciton to indulge in all kinds of crime to obtain their drugs. As in such, it is much better to rehab a Drug addict-cum-trafficker than to sentence him to death.

For other kind of traffickers, they should be rehabbed too, n probably made to pay compensation. HEAVY compensation, of course.

As for murder, i still think that the death penalty should not be meted out, juz in case non-incriminating evidence could be found later. AI has a story about a murder that happened in \England in 1978. The police did an extremely detailed investigation and found that all evidence pointed to one person, a 19 year-old boy. That boy was sentenced to death. So the case was laid to rest. Then, five years later, the housekeeper of the victim stumbled upon another piece of evidence, and this evidence proved the boy's innocence. The police, horrified at thier mistake, quickly compensated the boy's family and the judge himself gave a post-thumous declaration of teh boy's innocence. Obviously, it was too late. 2 years later, England dropped the Death penalty completely.

Like the Dalai Lama says, the Death Penalty is merely a shortcut for government to escape the real social ills. oh, n im ROman Catholic, not Buddhist. So, if you wish to prove me wrong, detail me a case of murder in Tibet. Surely, no Falun monk murders pple! in fact, its more of them getting murdered!

btw, ur pt on the irresponsibility...
it is our responsiblity to reduce and prevent crime in the nation. So you are essentially shirking responsibility if u heap the blame on the criminals purely. Remember, it takes 2 hands to clap.
the pikamaster

stupidissmart SG

15 grams is indeed the weight of a 20 cent coin.

However no one take drugs in their pure form. The concentration of the drug tat they take is very low, possible less than 1%. The question to ask is not about the weight, it is about how long can it sustains an average drug addict ? Fact is, such an amount will lasts a drug addict weeks. Drug addict know the drug abuse act more well than u and I do. If they r not drug traffickers, they will not carry on themselves more than 15 grams at any one time. Thus when people r caught with tat amount of drugs, most likely they r real drug traffickers.

Drug addict can be couriers, or donkeys. However, these couriers and donkeys r already helping with the distribution of drugs to the people. If they assist in making the drugs more accessible to the public, if they assist in making more people drug addicts, then too bad they had already done irrepairable harm and thus rightfully being labelled as drug traffickers. Drug addicters being forced into being drug trafficker just shows us the cruelty and seriousness of the problem of drugs. Everyone should know drugs can make fillial person murder their mothers, cowards be armed robbers and innocent girls into postitutes. Therefore we must try to reduce their infleunce as much as possible.

Anyway, most people are pressurised or facing stress in a certain area when they commit crimes. Thieves may be hungry and kidnappers may have a medical fees to pay for their mother. Can we pardon them all ? NO ! The number one reason why laws is in existence is to create an orderly society, where ones possession and well being is protected. Then will stability and growth be achieved.

Laws however do shows compassion too. In our legal system. It is called, ligitation. It cannot be used to wipe off the offence but it can be used to reduce the punishment of a certain offence. If a drug addict is really being forced by cicumstances, and he had fully coorporate with the police, then most likely he can be released from the death penalty.

About ISA, can someone enlightened me about the recent abuse of it by the Gov recently ? I mean the 90's and 20's.

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