Importance Of Going Into A University

last SG · 2003-12-03T11:12:34+00:00

Please proceed to National University of Nuns (NUN)

relevation SG

Don't believe what society, peers or the norm that University is the way to go.

Being a graduate myself- Let me tell you now- its not the paper that counts- its your brains and what you do that is marketable that counts. Look at who are living in Banglows in Singapore- Real estate agents, Insurance agents, Hawkers, Businessman, Fund traders, etc.

Most of them - if you do your research- DO NOT have a degree.

However if you do want a degree- do it because of your own personal development and not for making a living. Its value is getting lower by the day!!!! OR unless you want to waste your time toeing THE line in government or if you get a scholarship. Then maybe......

Gedanken SG

i'm glad you addressed that because that's a point i was trying to make. a "fact" being an "observable and measurable object, action or event" therefore, does not exist in itself.

it exists only after a process of active enquiry. so to claim that a "fact" exists by itself, in self and is self-justifying is absurd.

we would not know (nor care) how much time the subject spends on the internet unless we engaged the subject in a process of enquiry. this process might be straightforward in your case of a subject's average internet usage, but would easily be contentious within a more complex framework. ultimately, it depends on what questions u have asked yourself and what questions u are trying or able to answer.

that a subject spends 8 hours, or 10, or 15, is not a fact until u decide to integrate it into your framework to support your arguments/conclusions/opinions.

I disagree. A fact exists and remains a fact regardless of its integration into a framework. If this person spends 8 hours a day on the Internet, that amount of time spent does not depend on our observation. The distinguishing feature of a fact is that it is observable, not that it is observed.

I am not a subscriber to Cartesian logic I think, therefore I am does not apply to the non-living, which nonetheless exist. The fact exists by itself it is the observation of the fact that is dependent upon the observers actions. Self-justification is not a factor here, since the fact itself exists independent of our observation. For example, the red car sitting in front of my house exists regardless of whether I choose to take note of it or not.

I suspect that you might be alluding to the changes in the fact that may be brought about by the act of observation. On that I agree with you. In fact, that is the meaning behind my name on the forum it was based upon Erwin Schroedingers gedanken experiment with the cat.

its always nice to talk to an "old one" that has not lost their innocence in the current scholarship. so how does a fact remain "neutral" in itself if a collection of them can skew the conclusion in certain directions? there must be something inherently unstable about them in the first place now isn't it?

i'm not trying to be academically showy here... you're an intelligent and well read individual... you've probably seen or heard such views before... they're VERY popular in the social science discipline and they're not founded on loose, pedestrian opinions...

Facts themselves are neutral it is the relationship between a presented set of facts that can be skewed. In the example of the Internet user that I provided in my last post, it was the relationship between the facts that changed. Specifically, the persons usage looked like high in relation to the average user, but this relationship changed when the person was compared to someone who used the Internet 16 hours a day.

As an analogy, ammonium nitrate is in itself not a harmful substance it is in fact useful as a synthetic fertilizer. However, pack it around a block of C4 and it amplifies the explosive effect.

I hope you can see what I mean here. When someone presents an argument, we need to pay attention not only to the facts but to the relationship between the facts.

sigh... jargons with more jargons...

Hey, dont look at me! Youre the one who asked for a concrete example of a concept! Mr. Green

you are assuming the fact that one has perfect knowledge, or that your discipline is defined by a norrow corpus of knowledge... i dunno which is worse... to claim to know everything or to claim that everything u know is understood on your narrow terms... or maybe i just misunderstand the simplicities of your work.

Good lord, no! If we already had perfect knowledge, why would I have performed research on it?

It is not that the examiners have perfect knowledge of the subject matter, but instead their ability to use their ability to handle the subject matter on a conceptual level, that would have allowed them to spot the holes in my argument.

In fact, this is exactly what I am talking about. Only one of my examiners was required to have knowledge in Item Response Theory, because the main aim of the examination process was to verify the logical consistency of my research. Im not sure if you have done postgraduate research before, but a postgraduate thesis is required to be an original contribution to the field. If it is original, how could someone know more about it than the researcher?

Instead of falling back upon their existing knowledge of the subject, the examiners take what is written, and extrapolate it to their own conclusions. If these conclusions are not addressed, it highlights shortcomings in the research.

This principle all seems random unless you consider that the examiners themselves employ methods of properly assessing concepts through the use of rules governing logical structures. These rules have been developed since the days of the early philosophers, in order to assess the soundness of their arguments. For a good description of these rules, I would recommend Trudy Goviers A Practical Study of Argument it provides a clear explanation of what forms a properly constructed argument.

Continued in next post...

Gedanken SG

As you have said before, total dependence on existing knowledge is a flawed approach, and I agree wholeheartedly. First, as you have also said, you cannot assume perfect knowledge of anything. Second, it does not account for learning anything new. What is needed is a way of handling intellectual material without a complete store of specific subject material, and this is where the ability to conceptualise comes in. I occasionally participate in multidisciplinary groups with professionals from other fields such as medicine and law, and I need to be able to understand what these other professionals are saying without being an expert in their field myself, so that I can make a useful contribution to the discussion at hand. While I pick up specific bits of information from their fields, I integrate them into my understanding of the topic by applying them to that conceptual framework, which itself is modified as more information is added to it.

This in fact brings us full circle, and indicates that we are in fact talking about the same thing, only couched in different terms. In a previous post, you said:

u have to know HOW to ask yourself questions to know WHAT these facts MEANS to u... part of this is training, part of this is applying a concept/framework that at best, only fits partly, and most of it is just plain informed OPINION.

Well, how do you know what questions to ask? Along the lines of my existing argument, I propose that those questions are the result of applying the rules of logic to the information presented, extrapolating from the bits of information to form conclusions, comparing it to the information presented, identifying aspects that have yet to be addressed, and bringing those aspects to light by asking questions about them.

Perhaps one thing that I am remiss in not making explicit is that this process is not necessarily a formalized process, in that it is carried out consciously. Some people seem to have an innate knack for performing such a process without thinking about the process itself. I believe that the owners of Tee Yih Jia and Creative Technologies, whom Atobe identified, are examples of such people. They think that way as a matter of course research into people who are successful in their fields indicates that this manner of thinking is common across these people (Ill follow your lead here in not providing a bibliography in a friendly conversation Mr. Green ).

This brings me back to my original point, and back onto the topic. While there are such talented individuals who think in this manner as a matter of course, the rest of us mere mortals need to learn to think that way. Ironically, therefore, the point for many of us going to university is to learn to think like these people without degrees. The problem is that many university students seem to miss this simple point and end up no smarter than they were when they started, because they were too busy memorizing the basic facts they have missed the forest for the trees.

Whats your discipline, by the way?

CX SG

its been fun and stimulating, but i can't help but think that we're talking over each other and engaging OURSELVES rather than each other Mr. Green

our understanding of the world at large is based on fundamentally different benchmarks i guess...

i majored in history and although that might be considered by many to be a discipline firmly rooted in "reality", a degree in it forces us to engage the questions of what exactly that "reality" constitutes and how it has been constructed.

so u really have to indulge my cynicism if they do appear offensive and irrational to you Mr. Green not many pple have the patience or the open mind to engage the abstract. they like the firmness and certainty of "facts" when i will question the very essence of that fact, its very existence and its veracity and validity.

it pisses pple off when they cannot properly understand such doubts. its not cartesian logic. its post-structuralism... started with literature and slowly creeped across the arts and social sciences disciplines... most undergrads who've been through it will attest to how bizarre, esoteric and dense it is Mr. Green

basically, they'll tell u that there's no such thing as "truth"

Atobe SG

To CX and Gendaken

Bravo to two wonderful Gentlemen for the illuminating contributions on a simple topic.

It has certainly been very illuminating in the manner of style, delivery and substance.

If awards are available, both your contributions will have been OSCAR winning for this forum.

Outstandingly brilliant.... when compared to the frequent non-committing 'One Line Remarks' that do not require too much Thoughts.

Gedanken SG

Aha! I was thinking that you did something along the lines of Literature! Mr. Green I had a brush with post-structuralism when I did Media at undergraduate level, but I chose to go for a pseudoscience like Psych instead. You're right - with a subject like history, you do need to question the elements reported as fact. In psych, it's different because the emphasis is on measurement of dimensions that have a discrete definition, and it pretty much works on the basic tenet of Chaos Theory: if you can account for all of the applicable elements, you can predict anything.

This debate's been an absolute gas! In a way, we've answered viruskid's question. Apart from the obvious benefits to employability, a fringe benefit of a university education is in developing the enjoyment of intellectual pursuits! Mr. Green

CX SG

haha... welcome Atobe...

its just intellectual bluff-ology to some extent lah... not as if pple will read through all that stuff right? its basically a conversation between Gendakan and moi...

thanks G, for indulging in my cynicism.

just to clarify my position... i'm not a big fan of post-structuralism... i'm at best, a sneaky relativist... or maybe that makes me an extreme post-modernist cos i believe that no one position is absolutely correct. Mr. Green

it is an extremely scary position to be in really... to actually question, and start to believe to varying extents, that the world around u is made up of very elaborate half-truths... i still don't agree with G's definition of facts and factuality, but hey, if everyone thought like the post-structuralists, we'll be in total despair cos there'll be nothing left to believe in and live for Mr. Green

yeah, G is absolutely correct in stating that going through uni is essentially a mental exercise that conditions one's mind to handle complex intellectual issues.

its not the theories or the syllabus, but how we've applied it at the end of the day. there is a qualitative difference... u see the world differently and u are able to express such differences with a more complex vocabulary. (which is probably why some will accuse grads of being intellectually pretentious and dressy in their speech... the original premises which this argument was based on...)

but then again, different pple take away different things from a uni education... some see it as a means to an end, some see it as an end in itself, some just don't see what the point is even though they're in it...

one thing that uni has done for me, is that it has helped me think and decide for myself. hasn't really made me a lotta money, but that was never the point for me in the first place... its really an issue of how u wanna live, not how much u wanna study.

Atobe SG

Hi CX, for some 'intellectual bluff-ology' it was well executed, and tremendously entertaining for anyone following both sides of a very stimulating exchange, and more so for one who is 'on the road'.

However one encounter the facts that are faced, and opinions formulated, and whichever manner that a student decide his goals for a university education, the benefits of challenges of facing a few years of Life in a University cannot be diminished.

The value of University Education will depend very much on how the courses are conducted that will challenge and develop initiative, resource, enterprise, intelligence, patience and perseverence in the individual student.

It will help to mould and challenge the immature mind of a High School 'kid' into the world of independent disciplined research, either working individually or as a group.

At the State Level, this has been recognised by the Productivity & Innovation Group of SPRING, Singapore - that it is important for Singapore to have a critical mass of at least 65% of the workforce to be educated beyond Secondary Education.

This recognition is not merely for Singaporean to be an economic auto-bot, but with university education nurturing and developing talent - which is the key resource in a knowledge-based economy.

Earlier in 2003, the Straits Times had featured a list of China's new tycoons, who are mostly in their 40s, and all had at least a university degree, and are self-made business people - with an average fortune of S$165 million, and the top performer's fortune estimated at S$1.3 billion (first published by Shenzhen-based New Fortune magazine).

If your present economic position is not to your satisfaction, perhaps it will be good if you can find the Challenge of your Life, and develop an adventurous spirit that will provide you with the confidence to step out of your comfort zone

There are many Venture Capitalists around nowadays, and although hungry to invest, they are warily helpful in any viable projects that can result in reasonable return.

boy in blues SG

Mr. Green the only paper that talks is dough. long greens. i'm talking cold hard cash, dig? who cares you only PSLE or what? there are other ways to get there besides being a post-graduate employee.

CX SG

i told u... its not how much u study or how much u make... its how u choose to live.

if its one thing that uni has taught me, its that life is about quality, not quantity. its not the stuff u own, or the dough u make... its about how well u're leading it, nurturing yourself and taking care of your loved ones... i don't need to be rich to be happy.

and its not like i'm lazy, or not stretching myself, or not "entrepreneurial", i just don't see myself as one who runs the race or climbs the ladder.

tranquil2 SG

well, as parents always say : "boy ar/ GIrl ar, must study u noe.. it's very important, if not, u'll end up being a waste collector or a job which not many favours.." As cliche as it sounds rite... y r they always saying this?

as years go by, the standard of living has risen gradually, let alone the cost of living.. this means that u must be financially capable in order to meet these needs... How r u going to earn more then? Still, academic qualifications are the paramount factor in deciding whether u'll be able to get the job... but this may not be true, as i've a friend who's only armed with a dip but managed to get employed after 2 interviews... and guess what, she faced quite a stiff competition, as , there's another candidate who's got a degree in the same disciplne... But i still do feel that a degree is a kind of insurance. It tends to secure u psychologically... .
hmmm, any comments?

Gedanken SG

CX, I think we are agreed that the main aim of a university education is to broaden one's mind. However, on Atobe's point, wouldn't you agree that the money-making aspect of having a degree is a welcome fringe benefit? After all, money can be used wisely to improve quality of life.

In my case, as I posted on the salary thread, I have just left a job in Melbourne to return to Singapore for a year. In that job, the actual time spent working was about four hours a day typically, the rest of which was spent mucking about on the Internet. Mr. Green Seriously, pulling in 5 grand a month on a strict 37.5-hour week allowed me to easily pursue other interests. Most of my free time was spent giving my former classmates swift kicks up the arse to finish their theses, during which I had a lot of fun learning about their thesis content. I also used my recruitment experience to help other friends find jobs. That still left me with enough free time to learn latin dancing, work on my tan and explore restaurants.

Over and above all that, the qualification has given me the credence to state my terms at work, in that I have the luxury of choosing the work that I want to do. I had a lot of fun in my last role in market research, although it was admittedly thin on statistical analysis, which I do enjoy (yes, I'm a nerd). Before that job, I spent a fun six months researching and developing policy on the implementation of wireless local area networks at my old university. My point is that with my university qualifications, I could afford to look for jobs that actually interested me.

On a separate point, the outsider may, I suppose, be forgiven for thinking that the language used by degree holders is a wank. However, I think you would agree that it in fact serves a purpose - it allows us to state what we mean most clearly and precisely, rather than being limited by more colloquial vocabulary. The vernacular, after all, can often be somewhat ambiguous.

Gedanken SG

I suppose it can be seen that way, Tranquil, although one does need to be wary of the flip side: even if having the degree does make you feel better, if you have to fall back upon it, something is seriously amiss.

I have never had to use the title of Doctor to pull rank on anybody, and I would never want to - the only thing it shows is that my logic is not strong enough to stand on its own.

CX SG

come on... its not as if i'm one of those pretentious tree hugging bum who wants to live in a tent and hunt his own food. nor am i one of those underachieving, lazy losers who's just not interested in making his life work.

i just think that there's more to life than making money and running the rat race... don't get me wrong, i like money, and i like spending money, i just think that its senseless to let it rule your life cos its never gonna be enough, and u can't take it with u when u die.

i make enough, i do my best at work, if just rewards comes my way, thats fine. thats my attitude to life. sure, there're challenges to surmount, sickening pple to handle and all the stuff that comes with "work" (that dirty 4-letter word), and i do it just fine.

i just don't like to let work and money rule my life... like i said, its how u choose to live... can work your arse off by aspiring to live like a king, or you could just live at a comfortable level that your income allows u to... without stretching yourself too thin on credit and requiring u to work O.T, take on freelance assignments and fight for that big promotion/pay-rise.

sometimes, the best things in life comes your way by you not trying too hard for it. i just believe in doing my best.

Atobe SG

CX, I can understand your positions in not making 'MONEY' to be 'THE All and End All' goal in your life, and for your decision not to participate in the rat race; as well as for your contentment with the status quo that you have achieved up till now.

Some prefer not to step up to lead, and prefer to be a worker, while others bask with pleasure and satisfaction in the spot light of grand achievements.

We have architects and engineers beaming at the completion of monumental projects of Republic Plaza, UOB Plaza, and similar projects like the SUNTEC City; and we have those who qualify as Architects and Engineers preferring smaller challenges with similar quality of satisfaction.

We also have people who prefer not to be at the front end being a Brigade Commander or Battalion Commander, preferring to be lower level Commander at the Company, or Platoon, or at the Section Level.

I guess it will take different kinds of people to make up a Community, and it certainly is true that it cannot be a situation where everyone becomes the 'Indian Chief' and no one will be the followers.

The reality is that it take different personalities to make-up the very interesting environment that we live in, and present us with the challenges of a market place for the different goods and services that are needed.

However, it is a pity that for someone - who possesses a 'highly trained' intellect, and supposedly with equivalent years of experience, will prefer to step back and watch the World go by - not that anyone can fault you on your decision.

The fact that you have to make adjustments to tolerate working with people while performing your level best in your work, will already require you to be in the rat race, without competing in it.

The search for 'Higher Levels of Satisfaction in Achievements' need not result in any rat-race, if you allow yourself to believe that such an environment exist, or at least insulate yourself from being in it by working at your own standards to achieve the goals of the assignment.

The rat race is one in which we try to out do someone else at a personal level.

Competition in the market place exist between rival companies, it adds to the distinct challenges and flavor of the work, and can hardly be termed as part of the rat race.

Competition is what that bring out the best in humans, as had occurred when the USA was rudely awaken to the Space Race, when Russia launched a Sputnik satellite that flew over the USA.

It is a real pity for someone with the training that you have, will prefer to 'sit back' and not take a more 'prominent role' in the enterprise of developing the Community.

Someone had once said that the Community contributed to one's education at the University, and the Graduates have a social responsibility to assist in the development of the Community.

The calling of Singapore today, is for a New Generation of Entrepreneurs to bring this country called Singapore to a higher level of economic activity, and in doing so perhaps lessen the need for Government participation to move the economic wheel.

At the end of it all, what will be the use of each Singaporean Male performing National Service to provide Singapore with a Military Option, but allowing Singapore to be weakened economically in the current economic model that Singapore is built upon.

Blur78 SG

Everyone has their points and to really understand each points and views, you really have to open up your own mind deep within.

....Knowlegde is good but without the life "X" factor its hard to reach the goal you are looking for and its the same looking from their angle. Learn to know when to start and stop what is visible and when to push on.

Your topic will have alot of "Yes and No" as its a double egde sword which cuts both side, hope you could see the point.

CX SG

Originally posted by Atobe:
I guess it will take different kinds of people to make up a Community, and it certainly is true that it cannot be a situation where everyone becomes the 'Indian Chief' and no one will be the followers.

The reality is that it take different personalities to make-up the very interesting environment that we live in, and present us with the challenges of a market place for the different goods and services that are needed.

i have no arguments with that.

However, it is a pity that for someone - who possesses a 'highly trained' intellect, and supposedly with equivalent years of experience, will prefer to step back and watch the World go by - not that anyone can fault you on your decision.

why's that a pity? am i to bear the burdens of the nation on my shoulders? don't i have problems of my own to attend to? don't we have the most highly paid and capable civil servants and politicians to take care of ALL our problems for us?

The fact that you have to make adjustments to tolerate working with people while performing your level best in your work, will already require you to be in the rat race, without competing in it.

The search for 'Higher Levels of Satisfaction in Achievements' need not result in any rat-race, if you allow yourself to believe that such an environment exist, or at least insulate yourself from being in it by working at your own standards to achieve the goals of the assignment.

The rat race is one in which we try to out do someone else at a personal level.

so how is one to be in a "rat race" of your definition, if they decline, like i do, to try and outdo their peers? maybe i just manage to do so without trying? i don't judge... my bosses do.

Competition in the market place exist between rival companies, it adds to the distinct challenges and flavor of the work, and can hardly be termed as part of the rat race.

Competition is what that bring out the best in humans, as had occurred when the USA was rudely awaken to the Space Race, when Russia launched a Sputnik satellite that flew over the USA.

i'll agree to disagree on this one... not all competition is positive... some are plain wasteful and unproductive. like office politics and in-fighting... makes an office look like afghanistan without getting an ounce of work done. i'm firmly against, and aloof of all that.

It is a real pity for someone with the training that you have, will prefer to 'sit back' and not take a more 'prominent role' in the enterprise of developing the Community.

Someone had once said that the Community contributed to one's education at the University, and the Graduates have a social responsibility to assist in the development of the Community.

the community is made up of INDIVIDUALS. stop thinking of everthing within the framework of the PAP collective.

now, government scholars who went to uni on a taxpayer's meal ticket have a responsibility (and even a debt) to society. the under-graduate who had to take on 3 jobs a sem to make ends' meet owes it to themelves and no one else for his success.

it would seem that u advocate a society based on diversity, but you would deny me my individuality and differences because u think i need to "play my part"... and what part is there to play, but that which the individual chooses for himself? why should anyone be forced to contribute in fixed ways? isn't the man on the street working his arse off and minding his own business contributing as well?

thats the problem with this place... we pay lips service and we like to "wayang". everything has to be exaggerated and overt, critics have to be loud and unruly, graduates are the leaders of society... u're such a conformist... no offence, u quote very well, but u don't seem to have made up your own mind yet...

The calling of Singapore today, is for a New Generation of Entrepreneurs to bring this country called Singapore to a higher level of economic activity, and in doing so perhaps lessen the need for Government participation to move the economic wheel.

so wat's your point? jumping on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings is your idea of one doing his part for society?

At the end of it all, what will be the use of each Singaporean Male performing National Service to provide Singapore with a Military Option, but allowing Singapore to be weakened economically in the current economic model that Singapore is built upon.

i'm not interested in holes which the government digs for itself. i won't lend them a shovel to bury me in either... ultimately, the best thing an individual can do for the country is to BE an individual.

nobody predicted globalisation, nobody predicted that the world will move so fast that we have to either keep running, or be roadkill.

u can't control or change the superstructure, but u can choose HOW to live. that has always been my point. the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles".

why the heck can't a person just be himself here?

Atobe SG

CX, no offense intended but I like your style.

Sure, we have those highly paid and capable civil servants and politicians to settle ALL our problems for us, but are you satisfied enough with the present situation and not to take any further actions beyond accepting the status quo for yourself ?

What about the future for your children, or will you let them fight their own battles ?

There will always be black and white, negative and positive forces that will overwhelm us unless we are either stronger than those forces or thread carefully through a beaten path and steer clear of those combative environments.

We cannot always escape into a cocoon and insulate ourselves completely from negative or positive competition, and not take stock of the situation, but always allow others to dictate the environment that we live or work in.

Each individual owe as much to the Community, as he owes to himself for his own existence and his status within the Community - regardless if a undergrad has to take on 3 jobs to finish his degree, he still is indebted to the Community, as without the funding from the Community, the university would not have existed.

No one makes progress alone by himself, not even LKY who will not be who he is today without Singapore.

Singapore will probably be what she is today, with or without LKY, as it was already a thriving metropolis during the early days of Singapore in the 19th Century, compared to the surrounding trade centres of the day.

Singapore will probably arrive at her present First World status via another route, another personality, another vision, another political philosophy, as there were leaders with vision in the various communities that gathered in Singapore throughout our history.

There was no attempt to deny you of your individuality - in preferring to STEP OUT of any contributory and public role that you can probably assume, based on your leading qualification in education and experience as a University Graduate.

While we lament on the omni-presence of GLCs in servicing every aspect of our daily needs to survive in Singapore, and the stifling competition that result in killing the Small and Medium Enterprises that result in killing the entrepreneurial spirit, it will be quite necessary for every and any willing Singaporean to prove the Government wrong that we are unable and unwilling to be our own Masters.

Far from being a conformist, many Singaporeans have been spreading our wings way before DPM LHL (heading the 1985 Economic Review Committee) had decided to adopt this cliché; and there were many Singaporeans who succeeded, and also gained experience from failures, in venturing abroad since independence.

Many entrepreneurs have started on the same premise as you have, by being fed up with the eternal petty office politicking that seemed to exist in every organization; and despite resigning oneself to a corner, and exactly as you have to face - there're challenges to surmount, sickening pple to handle and all the stuff that comes with "work" (that dirty 4-letter word), and i do it just fine.

In Life, there will be always Wayang to watch, it exist everywhere, and you cannot escape from it.

You do not need to conform to the wayang demands of those around you that form your Community, but you can at least influence the standard of the wayang; or you can totally withdraw into a nutshell and let it slowly absorb you.

There are those who stopped the World, and got off; and there are those who took on the World and made it a challenge to surmount the challenges of a Lifetime by BEING IN CONTROL of the challenges.

The entrepreneur is his OWN BOSS.

Taking a back seat and let the Boss decide on what work you should do, will end up with your OWN future being decided by your Boss - and contrary to your observation this is one prospect that I have made up my mind will never happen to me.

You should give more credit to entrepreneurs, who are great risk takers and DO NOT jump on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings based on the Government say so.

You should give more credit to those successful and failed entrepreneurs as they provide a service to society by the amount of investment that they put up, which create the catalyst for economic activities in society, and is done at great risks to personal funds compared to what the Government Ministers and GLCs does with tax payers money.

I will agree with you that the best thing an individual can do for the country is to be an INDIVIDUAL, but I will qualify it further by being a USEFUL one.

You can only isolate yourself so much from the community by being YOURSELF as an INDIVIDUAL, but you will still need to hook up to the world beyond yourself for the needs that you have.

Either you assert your strength to influence and change the environment around you, or it will change you as it overwhelms you.

CX SG

Originally posted by Atobe:
CX, no offense intended but I like your style.

none intended, none taken... issues only become clear through vigourous debate... something which Sg has a lot to learn about... and i am blunt at times because i am trying to bring across a point forcefully, not because i'm getting personal so don't take it the wrong way.

Sure, we have those highly paid and capable civil servants and politicians to settle ALL our problems for us...

of course we're unhappy... of course we're unsatisfied... but i will also bet u money that there is no such thing as a perfect society. it is better to learn how to live and thrive through adversities rather than complain that adversities hinder your growth.

What about the future for your children, or will you let them fight their own battles?

no kids, thank god.

There will always be black and white...

i stay in the grey path and draw strengths from all those self-righteous forces that claims to know all the answers. no point indulging in polemics. there has to be room for developing every discussion. polemics limits the scope for discussion.

We cannot always escape into a cocoon and insulate ourselves completely from negative or positive competition...

i'm not saying that u hide, i'm saying that u evolve rather than argue.

Each individual owe as much to the Community, as he owes to himself for his own existence and his status within the Community ...

u pay taxes don't u? your parents pays taxes, don't they? and in uni, u pay fees, don't u? mind u, they're still not cheap even with supposed "gov't subsidies"... and i wonder why an arts undergrad pays the same fees as an engineering undergrad when he doesn't have access, or need to use cutting edge technology and expensive lab facilities to do his course???

i'm not gonna get into a chicken and egg argument here... i just believe that its not always helpful for an individual to think in terms of "confucian indebtedness"... u won't have entrepreneurial spirit, vigourous personalities, dissent and quite simply, diversity if u keep thinking in terms of "society" and "community". agree to disagree on this one i guess... humans are complex.

anyway, the measure of a man is not his academic degree or his financial success. it is simply the strength of his convictions and if he is destined for public office, one hopes, his morality.

No one makes progress alone by himself, not even LKY...

it is un-historical to ask "what if" questions. an important man deserves his legacy... i'm only disgusted that he tried to write his own legacy and no one actually bothered to dispute his version.

There was no attempt to deny you of your individuality - in preferring to STEP OUT of any contributory and public role that you can probably assume, based on your leading qualification in education and experience as a University Graduate.

and THAT is NOT what I want to do! your "assumption" is grotesque! what makes u think that "society" accepts pple just cos they're "smart" anyway? Mr. Green obviously haven't been reading the news of late...

There are those who stopped the World, and got off; and there are those who took on the World and made it a challenge to surmount the challenges of a Lifetime by BEING IN CONTROL of the challenges.

thats interesting... have U done that? there's no point deliberating the theoretical advantages of being an entrepreneur. ultimately, its something u choose to do, when u feel u can or want.

this all sounds too idealistic... not that its a bad thing...

You should give more credit to entrepreneurs...

i didn't discredit them. just that u probably haven't seen a lot of clueless "entrepreneurs" yet. what is an "entrepreneur" to u? if u look around these days, u'ld think its synonymous with "retail"...

everybody's trying to sell something, whether its sandwhiches, bubble tea, streetwear or health products. whether in the form of a shopfront or a multi-level marketing network, everyone's jumping on SOMETHING... and usually not after a lot consideration or understanding of what they're getting into, but calling themselves "entrepreneurs" anyway...

an "entrepreneur" is more than that... jumping on the bandwagon is actually a contradiction of the entrepreneurial spirit. but the gov't, in attempting to push a slogan, substituted substance for form, and what u have, is a lotta clueless "pseudo-entrepreneurs"... admirable spirit, i don't deny, but rather than admire their failures, don't u wish they would just do more homework so they could succeed instead?

there are risks and there are risks... success stories take CALCULATED risks, not reckless ones.

I will agree with you that the best thing an individual can do for the country is to be an INDIVIDUAL, but I will qualify it further by being a USEFUL one.

that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.

u'll be going back to LKY's half-digested eugenicist views in the bad old days, when graduates are told to procreate and multiply, while none-graduate parents were told to get their tubes tied.

what is the measure of a "useful" individual? there is no meaningful benchmark. its best NOT to measure and just respect individuality what what it is willing or able to offer, no matter how little, how mediocre or how seemingly insignificant.

of course there's competition. and some will be more successful than others. and thats fine. does this make them more useful than the rest? hell no! go back to your secondary school science textbook. every organism has a niche. the insignificant earth worm u use as fish bait is as important to the enviornment as the birds and the butterflies.

You can only isolate yourself so much from the community by being YOURSELF as an INDIVIDUAL, but you will still need to hook up to the world beyond yourself for the needs that you have.

Either you assert your strength to influence and change the environment around you, or it will change you as it overwhelms you.

its actually easier, more sensible and often, more profitable to change yourself... evolve...

think about it... low end manufacturing jobs are GONE for GOOD in Sg... u can't change that. but u can change yourself (re-train, re-adjust) and try to take on other jobs in other sectors... not an easy option, but do-able with great determination.

Gedanken SG

CX, now youve got me confused I think its this preference of yours to be in the gray area, but Ill admit that I cant work out the overall gist of what youre saying.

For example, you say:

it is better to learn how to live and thrive through adversities rather than complain that adversities hinder your growth.

but you also say:

u can't control or change the superstructure, but u can choose HOW to live. that has always been my point. the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles".

why the heck can't a person just be himself here?

Taken within the separate posts, I can see what youre saying, but having come in after a few days absence and read them all in one shot, your overall argument seems to fold over on itself. I agree that living through adversity will make you stronger if it doesnt kill you, but doesnt the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles" imply that your choice is in fact to bypass, rather than live through, the adversity of the social conditions imposed in Singapore?

As for your question why the heck can't a person just be himself here?, it is a sentiment I wholly agree with. It is also a complaint, and that is in conflict with your statement that complaint is a poorer option compared with working through adversity. My personal philosophy has always been dont offer a complaint without offering a solution, and I propose that as a bridge between the either/or options that you outlined.

You also say that you are loathe of polemics, but at the same time, your posts include statements such as:

everybody's trying to sell something, whether its sandwhiches, bubble tea, streetwear or health products. whether in the form of a shopfront or a multi-level marketing network, everyone's jumping on SOMETHING... and usually not after a lot consideration or understanding of what they're getting into, but calling themselves "entrepreneurs anyway...

so wat's your point? jumping on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings is your idea of one doing his part for society?

If anything, youre introducing more polemics than anyone else in this thread. Please dont take this as a form of accusation. You are obviously trying to communicate the stand that you are taking here, but even a post-structuralist argument requires parsimony if the point is to be communicated. I am trying my best to crystallise my understanding of your point here, but at the moment, it sounds like "turn on, tune in and drop out", and we all know how poorly that worked for Timothy Leary.

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