Importance Of Going Into A University

last SG · 2003-12-03T11:12:34+00:00

Please proceed to National University of Nuns (NUN)

CX SG

Taken within the separate posts, I can see what youre saying, but having come in after a few days absence and read them all in one shot, your overall argument seems to fold over on itself. I agree that living through adversity will make you stronger if it doesnt kill you, but doesnt the hell with socially constructed notions and pap conceived "roles" imply that your choice is in fact to bypass, rather than live through, the adversity of the social conditions imposed in Singapore?

can a man who lives in the real world meaningfully (or wilfully) expect to bypass adversities? of course not. what's so contradictory about that?

As for your question why the heck can't a person just be himself here?, it is a sentiment I wholly agree with. It is also a complaint, and that is in conflict with your statement that complaint is a poorer option compared with working through adversity. My personal philosophy has always been dont offer a complaint without offering a solution, and I propose that as a bridge between the either/or options that you outlined.

i'll be a little more liberal and suggest that u don't have to offer a solution. "freedom of speech" should be exactly that. a man should be free to bitch, complain and whine. that it solves nothing is besides the point. suggesting that every opinion has to be substantiated and intellectualised is just elitist.

might be a little contradictory if u take our earlier conversation into consideration, but actually, no. it reflects my consistent respect for ALL views.

You also say that you are loathe of polemics, but at the same time, your posts include statements such as:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is that polemical or is that a fact? it DID happen. there's no guarantee that it won't happen again if we deceive ourselves into thinking that there is a meaningful measure of what constitutes a "useful man".

anyway, i have not slammed the door shut to further discussion. u can alway dispute my point if u want.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
everybody's trying to sell something, whether its sandwhiches, bubble tea, streetwear or health products. whether in the form of a shopfront or a multi-level marketing network, everyone's jumping on SOMETHING... and usually not after a lot consideration or understanding of what they're getting into, but calling themselves "entrepreneurs anyway...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that's polemical? hmmm... didn't realise. i meant it as a personal observation really... ok... maybe not EVERYBODY (no pink tutus this time) ... Mr. Green

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so wat's your point? jumping on the entrepreneurial bandwagon like a bunch of clueless lemmings is your idea of one doing his part for society?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ah... now that was deliberate 'cos i was hoping to provoke a response from Atobe. again, i've engaged in some rather objectionable polemics, but the intention was never to slam the door shut to any further discussion, which is my grouse with polemics in the first place... not the form, but the intent.

and i'ld rather u accused me of a million objectionable crimes before u toss "post-structuralist" or "post-modernist" my way... i do not subscribe to that and i do find it objectionable. Mr. Green

anyway, if u're here hoping to find a "constructive" view, or a critisicm with a solution attached, u won't get it from me. but does that make my views inapplicable, invalid, or nonsensical?

i dunno... are u the judge of that?

Gedanken SG

CX, you've just flip-flopped again.

First you say:

it is better to learn how to live and thrive through adversities rather than complain that adversities hinder your growth.

And then you say:

i'll be a little more liberal and suggest that u don't have to offer a solution. "freedom of speech" should be exactly that. a man should be free to !##&*, complain and whine. that it solves nothing is besides the point. suggesting that every opinion has to be substantiated and intellectualised is just elitist.

So what is it to be? Do you learn to live through adversities (by the way, I believe it is grammatically correct to say "adversity" ) rather than to complain, or should a person complain and whine? In the former case, if the person is to learn to live through adversity, then the opinion needs to be substantiated to be applied to the situation. I'm not the one asking for a constructive view here- you're the one who brought up "learning to live through adversities (sic)", leaving yourself in a position to be hoisted up on your own petard.

Ah, now we get to the question of exactly what is polemic. By definition, a polemic is "A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine".

If anything, your responses to Atobe's and my posts have by definition been polemical, because you have been challenging our assertions. I have absolutely no problem with that, but that being the case, it just doesn't sit right for you to say "no point indulging in polemics" - you are simply contradicting yourself.

As for:

that is just downright paternalistic and elitist PAP crap. if society goes that way, u'll just end up advocating forced abortion of deformed foetuses, incarceration of the mentally disabled and a disgusting eugenicist regime.

it is most certainly polemic, not fact. You are attempting to apply early 20th century Germany and America to Singapore in 2003. Is there enough in common between the situations to justify this application? If so, please substantiate it, because from this point, it looks like you are trying to pull a fast one on the unwary. Of all people, as a historian, you ought to know that comparing events and situations from two different eras and cultures is hogwash if there are inadequate grounds for equating the two.

Also, I didn't call you post-modernist - you did:

or maybe that makes me an extreme post-modernist cos i believe that no one position is absolutely correct.

I honestly cannot conceive your line of argument as being a grey path - yes, you do offer the different black and white views, but it somewhat lacks the integration of the black and the white into grey.

CX SG

is there a point to this?

much as i appreciate a stimulating debate, i really don't see how u picking apart my sentances helps clarify anything at all.

so are u agreeing or disagreeing? or just plain nit-picking? its really a waste of my time share my thoughts with you cos u're just hearing what u choose to hear and picking apart my words apart in a way that makes this entire discusison pointless and incoherent.

it's been fun, but its just pointless to carry on this discussion any longer because your mind is closed.

Gedanken SG

Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, CX. I'd dearly love to be able to either agree or disagree with you, but I cannot crystallise what the point is that I am to agree or disagree with.

I'm not trying to clarify anything I am saying here. Indeed, what I am asking for is clarification from you. Do I have to provide you with a guide to what I am saying? Fine. Here is the basic structure:

1) First you say one thing
2) Then you say something that contradicts it
3) So what are you saying, the first or the second thing?

Apply this template to what I have written in the last few posts, and you should be able to see the kind of clarification I am asking for. Once you have clarified your point, I will know what it is that you are saying and then I can agree or disagree with it. Before that, you are the one being incoherent, because you seem to be contradicting yourself. Unless I've missed something here - are you debating with yourself and are the rest of us crashing the party?

Right now, I could disagree with one thing you are saying, but you would just turn around and say "well, I said that too". Now THAT is a waste of time - if you are saying two contradicting things at the same time without integrating them, THAT is pointlessness. That's the kind of thing that gets you a 25% score in a uni assignment: 50% for only using half your word space effectively, with half taken off for you telling yourself that you are wrong through unintegrated contradictory points.

Bottom line is that the way your points contradict each other, you don't know if you're Arthur or Martha, and you're just drifting along without an overall standpoint. When someone asks you to clarify what you are saying, you choose to throw your toys out of the pram and say that other people have closed minds, rather than admitting that you have no point. However, if that makes you sleep better at night, knock yourself out.

You didn't make it past undergrad, did you?

CX SG

You didn't make it past undergrad, did you?

now now... i least expected this type of childish personal attack from you... totally unbecoming of a bright and (i presume...) esteemed academic like you... Ph.D you say? more like Permanent Head Damage...

i'm disgusted that a supposedly educated individual NEEDS and in fact, CRAVES for a simple conclusion when his qualifications and his experiences should have conditioned him to be able to accept ambiguities and complexities.

i try my best to share my toughts but because of your simple minded refusal to accept complexities and contradictions, you dismiss them and discard them.

now, i never asked u to agree with me. in fact, i prefer it if u disagreed and forwarded your own point. i am just sickened that u would indulge in semantics and personal attacks instead.

your arrogance disgusts me.

Gedanken SG

Aw, CX, I didn't trip on your itty-bitty little ego, did I? Don't go letting that chip on your shoulder show too much.

Besides, you're the one going on about marching to your own beat, and damn what anyone else thinks, so why are you getting your buns in a knot now? Maybe it's time to practice what you preach.

Ambiguities and complexities I am trained to deal with. Your incoherence and inconsistency, however, are contrary to the expressive skills that a university education should have imparted to you. That is exactly why I asked if you had gotten past undergrad - your inability to build a proper structure indicates that you have not. If brushing your inadequacies off as a matter of semantics floats your boat, go fot it.

Besides, what's the point of me agreeing or disagreeing with you when you're already doing a thorough job all by yourself?

Yes, yes, we already know that you are trying to share your thoughts. Therein lies the problem - like I keep asking, could you clarify your thoughts instead of breaking out in a rash whenever someone asks for further expansion? I'm a psychologist, not a mind reader.

I simply asked for clarification of your standpoint 6 days ago. What any normal person would do when asked for clarification is - guess what? - clarify. Instead, you choose to go off on a paranoid tangent thinking that someone is questioning your assertions and going off into tripe about close-mindedness and other hogwash. I do highly recommend growing up - it will do you a world of good.

weird70s SG

Well, from what I see, there are 2 type of people who goes to university for its importance.

First type goes for the education and their future. With a degree or post-grad degree, they see as their future lies there.
Second type goes to the university not for education but for sex. These type actually goes there for the pretty meimei there and chase every pretty skirts there.

That is how I see the importance of going to the university Mr. Green

AzRaeL SG

honestly it makes sense to work get a sense of what you really enjoy before studying a degree. Otherwise, you just end up with a useless piece of paper.

Gedanken SG

To an extent, I'd agree with you, Azrael. However, another aspect to consider is the discovery of an interest in a subject along the way. In my case, I started university with an interest in media and ended up switching over to psychology, which I took as an elective, by the end of my first year. Conversely, I have known a number of people who, by following their interests, finished degrees in law and medicine, but ultimately did not graduate, or switched to other fields of work after graduating. Perhaps examining the drives behind one's interests has some importance here, since the drives are less subject to change. At one point, a few of us were planning to do a study on what made medical students choose their course, since anecdotal evidence indicated that many did it for status or family tradition - we were going to call the report "The Hypocritical Oath". Mr. Green

Atobe SG

Absence makes the heart grows fonder.

Life itself is a University.

Gedanken, looks as if you are having some great fun and into high gears as the year draws to an end.

May the pervasive festive holiday spirit surrounding us bring joy and peace to everyone, as we approach the end of a challenging year, and renew our strength and energy for the new one.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to One and All participating in this sgForums.

Gedanken SG

Hear hear! Best of the season to everyone!

I'll be in town over the coming year, Atobe - we've got to catch up for drinks at some point. I'll PM you once I get my contact details worked out.

antoh SG

not really true

academically you may be sound but working attitude stands an important role. interpersonal relationship?

Atobe SG

Great idea, maybe a 'sgForums meet the people session' with everyone and anyone who is interested in meeting up ?

2004 will be a more interesting year for me, there will be more frequent travels and longer periods of stay at stop-overs, perhaps sometime during the 15 days of Lunar New Year - after the first 3 days for families and close friends.

Boxer SG

Go get a degree only if you WANT to be: doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant and other very specialised jobs

If you just wanna make big bucks, there are more painless ways to do it

Xprobe SG

No, no, no, no, no

You MUST have a Uni degree...

Because gahmen say Bachelor degree has 5 grades - Upper 1st, 2nd upper, 2nd downer, Pass w/ merit, Pass w/o merit

If you dont get degree, they dont know how to classify you and then they are at a loss of how to treat you. People around you dont know how much respect to give you. Everyone will be very uneasy.

So, you must get a degree...

Xprobe SG

Sorry forget to say one more thing

If you get a deegree, get a science based one hor

because gahmen say only engineers and tech-ppl are valuable to the economy, us arts fuggers can become the admin support for these people

Gone are the days they want a sales man because of his ability to build rapport with the prospect and close the deal, nowadays you must be a technical sales consultant, you must make the towkay understand all that jargon and mechanics before you close the sale, just to show that you are a sat sat intelligent being

But hor, most towkay and senior managers just have enuff time to want to know if your product or service can meet their needs or not at a fair price, why they care? most dont use their own money anyway!

You dont like it ah? Then fug off, go to HK or China where rags to riches are still possible. An Ah Beng with the right attitude, preseverence and some luck can make it big one day and come back to employ some engineers

« Previous Page