Singapore At War

last SG · 2000-04-06T04:56:00+00:00

I am newbie, but if I am a president of one country, let's say : Indonesia. And I want to invade SG (let's hope not)... you know ... what is the weakness of...

Silenthunter SG

Actually...the scorpion is a recon tank.....but Msia ordered scorpions refitted with a 90mm cannon so it has a bigger firepower without speed differenc. That's 15mm larger than the old, slow and unstable AMX-13 SM1 tanks.

I read from a book saying that the scorpion's cannon does not support APFSDS(saboted) Tank rounds but that's for the 76mm cannon...I'm not sure whether the 90mm supports that round or not.

An APFSDS round is a kinetic saboted tank round capable of penetrating very thick armor found in MBT. Most MBT(except russian tanks, who have their own version) support those round..so can the AMX-13 SM1.

I tot Msia had some KIFV APCs? These heavily modified M113 APCs are amphibious too....a recent new article reported that they are buying similarly designed APCs from Turkey...about 300+ of them.....Those can swim too.

These APCs are either in par or exceeds our M113 Ultra APCs. Both have 25mm chainguns, AGLs and 0.5" HMGs. Those KIFVs and APCs have additional applique armors plate...something which I din see in our Ultra vehicles.... Sad .

Yes, we have the Bionix but it'll take years to replace the Ultras as SAF's main APC/IFV. And Bionix is not exactly excelling highly above the rest too...it has some minor flaws here and there but I'm not discussing it here. Hopefully the Bionix MK2 will correct the flaws just as the Ultimax 100 MK3 corrected the flaws of it's predecessors.

bolts SG

Regionally, we need to be mindful of our neighbors, but, Yes! You're right about the last point. The biggest threat is China. Not Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia nor Philippines. The highly likely scenerio for Singapore to go to war is a Belligerent communist China. The trigger will likely be Taiwan issue or the Spratleys Islands. In this case, there is a high chance we will fight alongside our SEA counterparts. And should this war start, it's highly unlikely that we will ever win even with all SEA forces combined, unless we can get the US involved somehow......

NDU SG

As for what I know. The RSN will always look for some unique feature on the warship and equipments that being use in our water I even heard that all those design of our warship was purposely designed for us only!!!

Just like the MCV. Thats no others navy who has the same class of warship as we have (although thats some which look quite similar) the design of the ship was done in Germany and the weapon that fixed on the ships are the latest and must suit the environment for us if we gonna engage in war.

What I feel when I get to know that the RSN are getting those frigates was. This time round we are really over power!!!! the current MCV would consider one of the best warship in this region!!! No joke!!! The capability and performance have always gain excellence remarks and comment from countries like US, UK, Aust etc. one of the senior officer even told me that, the RSN can depend on 2 MCV to safe guard our water and 6 of its have already position ourself as one class above others(compare to msia and indo)

As for the weapon or missiles I dont think we will use Exocet hence the harpoon although has never proven in war (if im not wrong) has better range than the exocet!!! RSN will normally get weapon thats BETTER and not something thats equivalent to our neighbors!! Just look at our MCV main gun although thats lot of navy using the same gun but they are not using the super rapid version!!! Our gun can fired at 120rd/min and theirs only 80rds/min. rite, thats all gonna prepare for my exam hope to see more comments and info from u guys really miss those stuff as its really update me alot!!!! Seeya

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If you bleed more in peace,
You will bleed less in war,
Coz the only easy day was yesterday....

NDU SG

tripwire,
it seen to me that ur knowledge and info are always so Remarkable!!!! r u the officer(regular)in the SAF??? to me, ur knowledge cover not only the army, and air force.... but the navy as well(normally not much ppl will pay any attention on our RSN!!!!) btw.... how and where did u get all of its??? think the SAF really need more ppl like u!! kekekeke
cheers

------------------
If you bleed more in peace,
You will bleed less in war,
Coz the only easy day was yesterday....

Patriotic Tim SG

Yar Lor. That Communist(slowly moving away from it) country is the main threat! Look at their rapid arms buildup, wah lau, as if preparing for mass invasion of Asia. I think the PLA, PLAAF, PLAN is not only used to defeat Taiwan, but also small and countries that is weaker than her. OR!!!! Maybe even the US!!!!! BTW, the Chinese really have great weapons. Very great indeed. Their Type 85M II MBT and Type 98 MBT of the army is better than the American M1A? Abrams. No need to compare their armour. M1 surely wins. But compare agility, speed weight, ability to cross very very muddy terrain where heavy weight vehicle's wheel s will sink into it. Weaponry also very good.

Their SU27, J11 as they call it, is increasing in numbers and i think that the SU27 family is better than the F15C. The J10, which is a copy of the Israelli Lavi, is damn good. Equivelant of F16 technology.

The Navy. The Submarine force is getting bigger and their submarine are not very lousy. There are some "MADE IN CHINA" products that are really good attackers. Their fleet, wah lau. One day if war break out, the fleet comes towards the south china sea, the combined force will be greatly demoralised on seeing the fleet covering the whole radar screen. HAHA. Just a joke. They even want to embark on a mini aircraft-carrier programme. If SEA is to combine, chances of winning is 50/50. Why?
1) If they come by sea. Harpoon, ecocets and any rubbish would be thrown at the amphibious ships and normally the LST, LSDs are not very well defended by ECM etc. Chinese SSM missiles are not good in range whereas the Harpoons can finish at least some of the important frigates before they reach here.
2)But if they come by land, which means incade Vietnam, Cambodia and fight until the Thailand borders, wa lau. NO need to fight already. We can never defeat their land forces. Somemore countries in SEA have very few attack helicopters or totally no.

Conclusion: May all countries in SEA build up a good relationship, purchase great weapons, not for fighting each other, but combine and make a lethal force that is capable of defeating the Northern Giant by air, sea and most importantly, land!

Patriotic Tim SG

I agree! The main threat is the Northern Giant! actually, if SEA is to combine, chances of winning is 50/50. If they attack by sea, which means amphibious landings, there may be chances of defeating the whole amphibious forec, especially after we receive the frigates. But if they attack by land, which means having to defeat and invade Cambodia, Vietnam and reach the Thai borders, the result is loss for sure. By the time they attack is about 2006,7 and their force is so big that they can fight the US! once they successfully took land, their attack/fighters then got chance to land in Vietnam and Cambodia air bases and then every10 mins got Chinese jets doing bombing runs and fkatten the once crowded with tall buildings, Singapore.

BTW, you guys watched ENEMY AT THE GATES? you saw stalingrad? ar! that how Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand would look like once Chinese jets can get near us.

So the best thing is to make all SEA nations set up good relationship with each other and purchase weapons that are meant to deal with the Northern neighbours but not each other, Once they can do that, The Northern Giant willl never be able to come near us.

CenturionMBT SG

Please lah, China have no reason to invade SEA one lah.Firstly, they are concentating more on building up their economy.If ever they go on war ,their country would be devastated.Don't be too influenced by western media that china is the villian of the world.In fact, when you look closer, you would discover that US is the big bully after all.Poking their nose into everyone's buisness except their own, saying that the whole world have no human rights except themselves.They may say that china have no human rights, imprisoning people without trial,but look at the CIA, how many people have they assasinated without trial? Sure I know that US support us with all the best weapons,help us to build the economy this and that, but then, look at their policies with a deeper insight and you would see a darker side of US.Just take a look at the missile defense shield that they were trying to promote, all of us know that it was against China,but compare the nuclear arsenal of China and US,China has 12 nuclear bombs in their inventory wherelse US have thousands of nuclear bombs.Besides, this son of starwars project would never be succesful.Its technology is way ahead of its time.Well , I am not exactly pro china, nor am I pro US, it is just because of some bigots call Bush decided to turn the whole world against him thats why I type this.Well, lets hope we would see a more peaceful China and US in the future Smile Sad

Patriotic Tim SG

Ok. I agree with you that US is poking into everyone;s business but, they did restore peace between warring nations( except Israel and Arab countries), they did stop Hussein's onslaught on Kuwait, they did helped in the Korean War, the reason why they do all these, we will never know. Maybe they want to test their weapons( Persian Gulf War ), maybe they want people to know that they are the true super power, but i dun like the way China keeps blaming the US, from my view, the fault lies with the 2 nations. Why does the US need to keep gathering intelligence and info from China and why does China pilots have to keep intercepting the US in a dangerous(unprofessional) way? Knowing that the fast and agile J8 fighter can easilly crash into the slow and lumbering EP3 plane and i believe that the US is continueing its spy plane job. As for the taiwan matter, China keeps massing land forces to islands nearest to Taiwan. even though they said that these are regular trainings, they don't really have to train on that particular island, and th exercise is resembling that of the scene when China conduct a full-scale invasion of Taiwan across the strait but if war breaks out between the two, Taiwan is going to be thrashed because of the Chinese Naval Fleet and modern land forces.

tripwire SG

Why US wanna stop countries from going to war?? because US cant send its soldier all over the place to fight a war on multiple front.

Secondly, as long as there is local differences between regional nation, US of A will continue to have a role to play to its advantage.

Why US spy on china?? cause soon china would become to so powerful, america feared being push to the 2nd place.

Why PLA air force intercept US spy plane?? do we need to answer this C2P question?? would u like someone looking at your girlfriend bathing?

What do u mean by un-professional intercept mission?? u mean there is a proper intercept procedure??? which intercept mission do u prefer?? US or USSR??

In USSR, the proper intercept procedure is give 2 warning, if no response, shoot the bastard out of the sky. like the KAL.

In US of A, its 2 warning and missiles away to send the guy swimming if no return response. like the iranian airline.

China massing troops next to taiwan.....isnt taiwan part of china?? so what if china conduct regular exercise to make a point?? doesnt CINCPAC also regularly conduct joint exercise with japan, korea, australia and NZ in the pacific?? what point are they trying to make??

CenturionMBT SG

Ok, you said that US did bring peace to many countries about the world.However, if you look deeper into each war, you discover that US had plenty of bloopers in each war. For example, during the Korean war, the Americans attacked pass the 38th parallel although the chinese warned them not to do so.The result,US nearly got overran by the Chinese troops.
Now look at Kosovo.Why did US want to commence an airstrike? Very simple, US always wanted to get rid of all their surplus ammunation. However, dumping these would cost money so what better way to dispose of them than to dump it on kosovo.And furthurmore, by supplying other nato forces with the ammo, they would not need to pay the cost of disposal, in fact they will profit from the bombs they have supplied. Smile

CenturionMBT SG

Well enough of this deviation.I just discovered tht singapore have criuse missile ability.Just attach a warhead on one of those isreali UAVs and reprogramme it a little , it becomes a cruise missile.

tripwire SG

EH....if that is your definition of cruise missile, that means every damn nation that have a UAV is now a cruise missile capable nation.....

Eh....something missing right??

CenturionMBT SG

Whoops, imean only Blue Horizon and Firefly UAVS could do it.

Patriotic Tim SG

Anyway, these UAVs don't have very long-rang capability. Can give more info on the Blue Horizon and Firefly?

tripwire SG

Anyway, these UAVs don't have very long-rang capability. Can give more info on the Blue Horizon and Firefly?

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BLue horizon flown from USA to Australia....i think the range is not the problem.

Firefly information is classified.

bolts SG

Not quite correct. Maybe we should ask the Japs this question : Hey, you had no reason to invade SEA, why did you invade us during World War Two??

China is the only country so far that had a run-in with the Philippines Navy in the Spratleys. The other SEA countries with a claim on the Spratleys had the sensitivity not to antangonise each other. Not China, They built a military structure on mischief reef. And when forced to make a stand, blocked the Philipines Navy from going near Mischief reef.

Read this this article.
http://www.subcontinent.com/sapra/world/w_1999_01_21.html

Is there a reason for China to invade parts of SEA and stake it's territory? Possibly, because of possible oil deposits in the Spratleys.

Why would the US want to help tiny SEA? Possibly in exchange for some incentive. As they did with Kuwait in exchange for oil.

tripwire SG

China laid claim and has historical basis on its claim to the SEA islands for decades if not centuries. but it is open to discussion about the ownership of the islands with all involved in the dispute. BUT as a full sovereign nation, it cannot allow others from passing through its sovereign land unchallenged.

Phillipine asserted its claim only recently, base on geographical proximity (which is bullshit). Phillipine has not shown any conclusive evidence it owns those isle, in fact, what makes up the country of phillipine was not decided by the pinos, it was the spanish and then later the american colonial masters that decided which land or isle constitute their colony, the question is....was there any records that prior to the establishment of the nation call phillipine, was there any legally documented evidence that those isle belong to phillipine.

IN FACT, the americans which is the former owner of the entire phillipine isles and later granted it independence has rejected the phillipine claims that the spratelys belong to the phillipine and that USA is bounded by a joint defense treaty to come to the phillipine aid in the event the chinese move into the sprately's. so the pinos case is weak and little more then a pile of cow dung.

malaysian claim to the isle is even more absurd, it claim the isle as theirs because under a 1980s agreedment on EEZ, malaysian EEZ happen to overlap the islands and thus they claimed its theirs. twisting the agreedment to a deform level of absurdity.

malaysians self selective interpretation is equal to saying that using malaysian coast as a baseline, the EEZ of malaysia will effectively make the entire sumatra, half of klimantan, half of thailand and myanmar and the entire singapore and riau islands MALAYSIAN TERRITORY!!!

this is worst than bullshit!

SO....as u can see, the SEA nations are not so angelic as u might wish to think. they are all including PRC and japan, a pack of wolfs.

So china has bases in the spratelys,.....so does phillipine, malaysia, taiwan and vietnam.....so everyone is a devil actually. ehehehe

AS long as china abides by the IMO treaty and observe the free passage of the SLOC.....no one, not even USA, not singapore and not even GOD will come and help those loud mouth screaming (nothing else better to do jokers) pinos....because they have nothing to offer us.

America has no need of the oil in SEA, it already has a secure supply in the middle east, thanks to iraq.;>

bolts SG

Yes, it's true our neighbors sometimes act out of character. Same goes for US. THE point here is NOT who is a devil or the USA is a much bigger devil. The point is if they do find huge amount of oil and gas there, will there be a fight for it and how will the outcome turn out?

Those guys in the War room love scenario planning....think about it. If they find that the oil reserves in the Spratleys is really more than what is available in Kuwait (God forbid, and I hope they never find any), the geo-political landscape in SEA will change. Would China use force? If they do, would the SEA countries (excluding Singapore) stand a chance?

If China is not a threat, why continue to hold FPDA (if memory serves me correctly, it was for communist insurgency in Penisular Malaysia and Singapore is involved in this, unless this has changed?) air/sea exercises? The latest one was on 26th Apr to 4th May. Just last month.

Read the following excerpt by Rahul Roy-Chaudhury, Institute for Defence Studies & Analyses, New Delhi :

A major naval arms build-up is also currently taking place amongst the Association of South-East Asian Nations (ASEAN) member states. This may be due to a number of factors, including the additional naval responsibilities in the new international law of the sea; uncertainties due to a perceived American military withdrawal from the region; rivalry amongst the states themselves, the rapidly growing economies; and perceptions of threat from an assertive Chinese Navy in the region.

See J.N. Mak, 'ASEAN Maritime Insecurity: Contingency Planning in an Uncertain World', International Defence Review - Defence 95, pp.58-65.

We can stand on our own two feet against our regional neighbors. Why did Singapore open up Changi Naval facilities for the US fleet? Granted, having the US fleet in Changi means our neigbors would think twice about attacking. But, the greater impact is to keep China in check by having a US presence.

There has never been any doubt in the Singapore government's mind that China poses a threat to our regional stability. And that's the premise of Patriotic Tim's posting.

bolts SG

BTW, there’s a article in the latest Pioneer mag about the new Visby class corvette. Looks ugly.

tripwire SG

1. other than another superpower, no other country has the man, the economic might, the techonological edge, the military stength and the political influence to hold off China.

2. FPDA cannot hope to hold China, FPDA was set up more against Indonesia. The IADS under the FPDA is little more then a skeleton. FPDA is not a military treaty, it is a consultative agreedment. in any case, the rivalry and distrust between singapore and malaysia makes a joint defense an impossible task. UK is too far to send reinforcement, NZ is too weak and australia cant even defend itself without USA.

3. If ever China moves south with its huge army of 3 million regulars, 20 million reserve troops, i doubt all the ASEAN armies can hope to hold their ground without superpower intervention. And if China goes all out mobilization, China can throw in over 270 million soldier! that is equal to the entire population of USA! Now u see why singapore open up CNB to the USN?

4. the disparate political reality, conflicting interest and weak economic makes a united stand an impossible task.

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