Singapore At War

last SG · 2000-04-06T04:56:00+00:00

I am newbie, but if I am a president of one country, let's say : Indonesia. And I want to invade SG (let's hope not)... you know ... what is the weakness of...

wombat SG

India, Malaysia Seek Stealthy Subs

Reports indicate both India and Malaysia are in discussions with the Naval Ship Building Directorate of France for Scorpene-class submarines. The Scorpene is jointly built by DCN of France and Izar of Spain at a unit cost of approximately $320 million each. India reportedly wants six of these subs. Malaysia, meanwhile, is said had narrowed its choice to several Scorpenes or German U212/214s.

The diesel-electric Scorpene employs a high level of both active and passive stealth technology. The sub has an albacore bow shape, with fewer appendages and an optimized propeller design. Between the suspended decks, the equipment is mounted on elastic mountings wherever possible, and the noisiest systems have a double-elastic mounting to reduce the their noise profiles. The low acoustic signature and hydrodynamic shock resistance give the Scorpene class the added capability of working with special forces in coastal waters. The boats are typically fitted with SAGEM optronic search and attack periscopes. Its combat system blends acoustic and non-acoustic sensor data for detection, tracking, localization and identification of targets; determines the tactical situation; provides tactical analysis; and targets weapons.

[This message has been edited by wombat (edited 12 April 2002).]

tripwire SG

i heard that there are SOSUS system in the entire singapore water..... if that is true... wont employing subs against singapore a pretty stupid an idea?

Shotgun SG

SOSUS around Singapore waters????? Sure anot??

After lookin at M'sia's choice of submarines, I wonder how they are gonna pay for them. Those are pretty new diesel boats, both the scorpene and U212. Somehow, i think that might have surfed on to www.naval-technology.com and picked all the diesel subs on the page to consider. Heh.

Btw, Trip, the Stengg page didn say anything about the rounds havin millimeter wave seeker.

tripwire SG

becos it dont have millimeter wave seeker.... i am just saying that since ST have DP ICM munitions... it should not be too far off an idea that they might start trying to put the millimeter wave seeker on it....

BUT.... ST might not put it on either... cos... the millimeter wave seeker, though impressive in several demonstrations in last 10 years.... was used most effective when against tanks in open ground....

with so many trees and jungles in SEA... i wonder how effective is a millimeter wave seeker against tankers hidden below the jungle canopy....

So... might as well use area saturation bombardment..... cheaper too. and even if the bomblet didnt manage to get the tanks... it should be more then devastating against the poor infantry around the tanks.... then we will see how the tanks stand on its own... heeheheeee....

[This message has been edited by tripwire (edited 13 April 2002).]

mooncake SG

here's what i read from www.defense-aerospace.com

the malaysian's have confirmed they bought:

-Steyr assault rifles, manufactured in malaysia under liceanse from austria

-signed an MOU for technology transfer from a norway company to make varous ammo for their military

-mobile military bridges from UK & france

-US$316 million to buy Jernas short range missile system to form a new regiment

-US$48 million to buy IGLA air defense system from russia

items still under discussions are:

-60 to 64 tanks from poland

-3 subs from france

-Su 30 fighter planes from russia

the malaysian defense minister said the orders from europe & russia are to be delivered within 3 years.

------------------
"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON

wombat SG

Think you missed a few....

1) upgrade the Command and Control System on board the Laksamana class Corvettes KD Laksamana HANG NADIM and KD Laksamana TUN ABDUL JAMIL. The contract is valued in the region of 15 M USD

2) signed a long-term agreement covering co-operation on production of 25 mm ammunition for the new Malaysian Armoured Combat Vehichle, ACV 300.

Anybody got some idea wat this ACV 300 is about?

No Frill SG

Has anyone here used the SAR-21? Care to comment on its usability, reliability accuracy etc? and i wonder when SAR-21 will be issued to reservists like myself..

CX SG

Greetings to all,
... A very interesting discussion which i felt rather compelled to join...

Hope that all active might put up with me =P

Anyway,
Viewed in context, the recent arms acquisition by our "friend" in the North might simply be viewed as a resumption of the modernisation which they put off when the economy went down the toilet. Their capabilities before this round of acquisition is indeed, pityful...

It might be remembered that Singapore went through a highly publicised defence budget increase just when everyone else was cutting theirs... we spent first, then laid low while they laid low first, then pissed their money away... same thing, different time...

Besides... it is easy to confuse a prototype, newly acquired, un-integrated piece of hardware with a fully operational weapon. They are 2 different things. A weapon bought today is NOT operational tomorrow. So even if the PT-91 are gonna be arriving next week (which is isn't,) its just a bogeyman sitting in a warehouse until the crew is ready to man it (which usually takes awhile).

I think its about time the North upgraded their capabilities... I would not enjoy bailing them out if they can't take care of themselves. As for its posturing against Singapore, what can i say? I will live free or die fighting so just let them try...

------------------
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

D. H. Lawrence

No Frill SG

i agree with you totally. Buying stuff does not equate to having it all ready to use. Already as it is, our northern 'friends' or (redland armed forces haha) have a huge problem with logistics, training, and compatibility. Their ground crews have to go through a nightmare trying to integrate soviet MiG-29 comms with their F-18s...all their NATO equipment can't work with the ex-warsaw pact junk they are buying.
Their training is a mess and they logistics is even worse.
I think their recent arms purchases, without the supporting infrastructure and the requisite (intelligent might i add) manpower is just a pile of scrap.
After all, the quality of one's armed forces is not based on the hardware alone. It's the entire system.
as for their newly bought Polish tanks, does anyone know whether our SPIKE missiles can tear them a new arsehole?
Can our 66mm LAW knock them out? Or will they (as i suspect) just bounch off the MBT armour?
Also, can our 75mm SM1 tank gun rounds hurt them or will they just annoy them Razz

Eyezer SG

Seriously, I dun think much of our LAWs and SM1s cos they dun pack the punch at all! Modern armors are capable to withstand all that, even direct hit(i believe)!
We're lucky that SAF decided ATGM is the ground wpn of tmr and we have seen significant roles of those weaponary in recent years.

Does anyone know when the result for the Fighter Selection is gonna be known? And whether the increased threat from the north is gonna make SAF push forward the local deployment of the Apaches? What about the UH-1? I think their service life is almost at the end of the tunnel..what's the plan for the replacement? Just the chinooks?

No Frill SG

Was just watching BBC and they were reporting that the Europeans are damned pissed that they lost the $4.2Billion deal to supply South Korea with fighters to the US (surprise surprise). the interesting part of the report was that apparently, the europeans are now more than ever, keen to make the sale to S'pore (either the Rafaele or the Eurofighter) over the US's F-18
but the BBC report was predicting that the choice is down to the F-18 vs the Rafaele cos what S'pore wants is a fighter with ground attack capability which the Eurofighter lacks.
Looks like S'pore will press both parties to compromise hard! haha. if the US were to win the fighter bid, they'd end up woth another billion dollar contract with S'pore! LOL and the Europeans will be doubly losers.
Of course the best part is now that the Europeans have taken the South Korean govt to court for calling the deal off.
LOL sour grapes!

As for your lack of faith in our LAW and toy car...er..SM1s, i agree...75mm HEDP is just going to bounce off the polish tanks..haha

Shotgun SG

I an pretty sure the Spike has the capabilities to punch through the PT-91 Armor, since its a Top-attack weapon. Unless that is, they modified the PT-91's top armor...... er.

As for the APFSDS fired from the 75mm of the SM1, one can only hope for the best. Of course, I'm more interested in the Apache, whether it can be rewired to fit Spikes on them.

tripwire SG

forget it... that PT91 has armor on the top to prevent such top attack from success... wat i read... if true... is that PT91... aka T72 upgraded version... have an armor that even 125mm main gun from another tank would have difficulty in puching through.... in fact... only the hellfire might stand a chance... provided that the hellfire can hit the tank... cos that tank as anti- laser guided ATM defense.... some sort of smoke and sensor i heard.

If all else fail.... shoot the track... the isrealis did that in 1973 war with syrian... it seems that the track is still pretty much still the weakest part of the tank... since it cant be too thick.

i read somewhere... dont know if it is true... that the americans have DU 125mm anti-tank round that can rip that PT91 to shreds.... but no confirmation...

but IF the spikes can penetrate the top armor... linking it to the apache... would effectively give SAF the weapon it needed to kill this monster.

m113apc SG

i believe this time the northern purchases are more thought thru and pose more threat to us.when u start buying tanks, subs, and aircraft the way they do, it indicates a serious effort to catch up with us.
its true buying equipment does not equate instant operational abilities, but if i am not wrong, they were sending ppl to pakistan for submarine training years ago.

we still have the headstart, but they are catching up

mooncake SG

i think the real red light in their new arms purchase is the subs & the PT-91 tanks. we have a few years head start on them for subs but S'pore is still on beginner's stage with sub warfare. & the tanks could be a problem. seems that SAF don't have a land fighting vehicle that is powerful enough to kill it. since the Guards will be out front & deep in a future battlefield their LSV's have to be equipped with a powerful anti tank weapon to kill these PT-91's if the SPIKE can't do the job. is it possible to buy a few of these PT-91's from a CIS country? if S'pore could just get their hands on a few of these to test/take apart & let our tank guys drive it to evalute it's performance, it would help a great deal in finding a solution to this threat.

------------------
"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON

CX SG

Now, is it just me being complacent or is everyone else being paranoid about our Northern friend's recent tank purchases...

Here's my two cents, for what its worth... Firstly, top of the line armour might block even the most advance ATGM, but it offers next to no protection to the factor most important to a tank: its mobility. A simple AT mine can still blow the tracks off a tank and a mobility kill is as good as a dead tank in many circumstances. Nobody is going to mark out a mine field according to the Geneva covention in a shooting war so thats not really hard to achieve... a 2 hour delay on a mobile column is tantamount to a failed mission in many circumstances. If anybody's tried clearing a mine cluster before, u guys know exactly what i'm talking about...

another thing is, deployment is unlikely to be massed... thats tactical suicide. This isn't desert storm where u can just drive up and mow over everything in your path. there is neither the space nor the tanks to do it. It not that hard to take out the few PT90s supporting the rest of the Scorpions and IFVs.

Hence, while i agree that there probably should be a more effective AT weapon than that sewage tube we lug around, I wouldn't lose sleep over the supposed effectiveness of this new toy in their possession 'cos it really changes things very little. It really psychological and i can see how its working very well...

tripwire SG

according to some report... that PT 91Z tank's track can withstand normal 10 - 12 kg AT mines....

CX SG

It depends on how much u believe marketing materials... Every bloody defence contractor will claim that their products will do the hookie pookie when u clap and the macarena when u whistle... You never know for sure until u see it in action...

During the Gulf War, the Allied forces thought that the Iraqi T72 were really powerful shit and all but imagine their surprise when instead of the spent uranium shells punching holes in the T-72 turrets, it knocked the entire turret off the chasis... testimony of shoddy soviet workmanship...

Now I know that was 12 years ago and situations are vastly different. But let me get back to my point: Are we to assume that a PT91 is going to roll on down a detected mine cluster unscathed? Thats ridiculous!

As far as I know, the Malaysians do not yet possess an effective counter-measure for surface mine clusters. That means they gotta either do it manually or find an alternative route. Either way, they delay would cost them dearly...

I guess I'm one of those people who believe that the simplest solutions are the best... Singapore cannot buy a new weapon system every time one of the tin-pot dictators of those neighbouring banana republics decides to buy a new toy and engage in some sabre rattling. There's gotta be another way!

Viper52 SG

I don't think we'll be reacting much to this round of their shopping, as most countermeasures are already in place. We've got the Spikes and Apaches to counter the PT-91s, frigates have been lined up for ASW/ASuW, naval ASW helos coming...

Its always a case of them playing catch up with us, and our military edge will not slip up too much.

I still think the T-72 class is too heavy for regional terrain anyway. Let them have fun trying to work out how to get those things through the jungle.

Shotgun SG

Even if they do find ways and routes to get those tanks over, those areas will probably be saturated with arty delivered mines or something.

My stand has always been this, Fight MBTs with MBTs. Wherever they might try to break through with MBTs, keep our own MBTs in the rear to block or counter attack. Apaches and Spike teams will supplement this force. Break off their spear head, and work your way down the softer wood.

Was down in Johor for the past few days due to work. I noticed the terrain was not suitable for MBT deployments. The soil in some areas can corrode easily due to rain, leaving heavier tanks to sink in mud baths. However, its NOT impossible to move through other areas, where the ground is tad bit firmer. Given such conditions, i believe its possible to predict such armored spearheads, lay ambushes, and run mobile defenses with LSVs, and deliver the final blow with MBTs of our own

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