Singapore At War

last SG · 2000-04-06T04:56:00+00:00

I am newbie, but if I am a president of one country, let's say : Indonesia. And I want to invade SG (let's hope not)... you know ... what is the weakness of...

Joe Black SG

To all the fellow Singaporean, I think it is time Mindef/SAF should look at getting a handful of offensive weapons like MLRS. I think some neighbour(s) think that by getting some offensive weapons, they have grown in confidence in bullying Singapore. They think that they now can easy crush Singapore and SAF. Sometimes the best defense is offense. And the best defense is psychological offense. If Mindef/SAF will get stuffs like MLRS, RSAF get long range guided munitions like Israeli made Popeyes, RSN equipped with Block 2 Harpoons which are capable of destroying land targets, I think potential enemies will then realise that everytime they try their scare Singapore or think that they can bully Singapore both militarily or politically, they are wrong. Dead wrong. Singaporean will shown them that Singaporean are a bunch of survivors. They will not be defeated before the enemies themselves are being stung so badly that they would be totally disfigured.

However, I do think that SAF can really be a real power if we do have a small division of entirely professional soldiers. Don't know what is the sign-on rate but I'm sure that given good vocation in the armed forces with a decent pay, there will be some people in who would be professional soldiers. Afterall, all the pilots are professionals. Most of the Navy personnels are professionals. Its time the army should form professional soldiers. Yes, get at least a few gurkhas or form some foreign legion where SAF could send for combat peacekeeping roles.

wombat SG

Having a publicly known strong offensive capability is not gonna shut those pple up. Instead, it will only add fuel to their groundless accusations.

SAF is never in the policy of publicise our capabilities, especially any "toys" we may have, or researched. But I believe most of us agree that we can hold our own in any regional conflicts.

Let them those folks make all the noise they want, why bother? But if they dare try anything funny (military), we will make sure they will taste the full force, and let them burn in hell.

YourFather SG

Hey, we have always been buying American stuff, but have you ever thought of the day when we may be selling American equipment to..... America?!!!? Dont believe, then hear me out! It seems that their SOCOM is considering acquiring the 6 CH-47D Chinooks that we have as interim replacements for the MH-47E helis lost or damaged during the operations in Afghanistan or Philippines. Our Ch-47s are very attractive to them as ours are already structurally configured for the same enlarged 7,827 litre fuel tanks on the MH-47Es, which they would convert the CH-47s into, should they acquire them. With Singapore intending to standardise on the CH-47SD version, such a sale may actually have a good chance of coming true.
On other news, Malaysia seems to want to address their shortfall in MPA capability. It seems like they are considering upgrades on theirBeech Kings among other options.

solaris SG

Hello Joe Black

I agree with you that many of casual military enthusiasts lack an appreciation of the military balance between Singapore and Malayisa. That is the reason why we have to defend the defensibility of our country to our singaporean friends and to retort the superficial dismissal of the SAF capabilities by our neighbours. This is not confine to civilians only and even within the 2 country services, the junior officers and men lack such an appreciation. This is dangerous as it leads to an inflated sense of self confidence and an underestimation of the opponent capabilities. However I believe that the higher commands on both side of the Causeway do have an understanding of each other's capability and in times of tensions,it should be their duty to brief the poltical leaders on such before the leadership decides on an provocative actions. Deterrence is lost when your enemy is incompetent and fail to see your strengths and signals. Offensive weapons? Smile I never believe in the distinction between offensive and defensive weapons Smile All of you know MINDEF/SAF aquisition policies - low profile and staggered - we do not want to be seen as triggering off an arm race especially now. Any immediate announcement of arms purchase would lead immediate to charges of sparking an arms race by our neighbours and escalate the tensions. Let the SAF continue with its current policy. The whole world do not need to be aware of our capabilities but only the right people in the opposition. We are a peaceful country Smile

As for the idea of a regular fighting force, a division is perharps a bit too big. 2 brigades would be ideal - These brigades could be our developemental forces. As for mercenary, don't mean to put you down Joe Black but the idea of recruiting mercenaries to fight for us is abhorring Smile

CX SG

Read Machiavelli "the prince"

Shotgun SG

Tripwire, perwira's question, no need to answer in detail.

No
No
No
No

The M'sian Defense minister can describe SAF as the most potent armed force in the region. I like Perwira's attitude, at least he believes that such deeds can be accomplished. If only Singaporeans can take such confidence in SAF..... sigh.

Shotgun SG

YourFather SG

Hey pple, we have always been discussing among ourselves the possible scenario of war with Malaysia. How about this time we see what others have to say about such a scenario? Take a look at this board, its mainly an Australian frequented one, but there are some from Malaysia and Russia as well... http://pub14.ezboard.com/fwarandpoliticsfrm47.showMessage?topicID=668.topic

Viper52 SG

Interesting, we get a lot of crap here about how they're gonna get top of the line Scorpenes while we're stuck with old rickety Sjoormens. But like its been pointed out over there, so what? Even if the Scorpenes are delivered tomorrow they wouldn't have the crew to operate it.

We didn't get the Sjoormens and expect it to become our uber-Uboat, we got it to use as a training platforms instead of using up valuable hull and fatigue life to train our sailors.

Once we're got a nucleus of sub crews up, the newer subs would come, I've already heard noises from my French contacts on this and the training arrangements.

tripwire SG

i make a reply at the ezboard... i decided to copy it over... so that we might continue the line here as well.

I agreed... in fact.. there is another problem for the malaysian armed forces....

Malaysia is divided by the south china sea into peninsula malaysia (next to singapore) and east malaysia. its military forces are divided into 2 with a 60% (peninsula) and 40%(east malaysia) distribution...

Its navy and air forces are likewise divided up between the two pieces of land...

Already its military is weaker then singapore...on paper... after taking into account of the division of forces... its far weaker then many could see..or what the malaysian even want to see at all.

On paper alone... after taking into consideration of the division of malaysian forces... singapore would be in an overwhelming position to take out malaysia very very quickly... with 350,000 (SAF) men against 60,000 (MAF)men...

furthermore... malaysia has a very very extremely long coast line... just defending its entire coastline with its limited manpower would easily stretch its military resources to razor thin.... on the other hand... singapore dont have such a problem and could divert almost its entire military forces on offensive actions...

as to regional involvement... i doubt they can move fast enough to prevent SAF from overruning malaysia... with the exception of thailand... which have a common border with malaysia... indonesia would need sea and air lift to get to malaysia's aid.... which obviously... the RSAF and RSN is not gonna allow that to happen without impunity..

BUT.. should indonesia exploit SAF invasion of malaysia by taking over east malaysia... ( i doubt anyone would stop them). it is cheaper and much more beneficial.... afterall.. taking out 40,000 MAF troops to get a big chunk of land would certainly be better then sending its limited 300,000 man to take on SAF 350,000 men and get probably nothing in return....

The thais might also look forward to some land 'reclamation' as well... afterall... as history have it... the kingdom of siam (now thailand) owns land as far south as the Perak state of malaysia....

How will this war end?? perhaps with the disintegration of malaysia... i doubt singapore would permit malaysia to remain considering the cost to singapore in taking out malaysia... wont it be stupid... if we have to do it a second time?? and there is no guarantee... we will be as lucky as in the first.

Joe Black SG

I reckon Singapore needs only the whole state of Johor and that will mean the greater survivability of Singapore for a long long time to come. Much more land means more places to develop and more spacing for the population, no water issues, bigger place for armed forces to train, no more complaint about RSAF incursion, no more long waits at the causeways just to get to the other side. Man, Sir Stanfort Raffles should have have bought Johor rather than just the Singapore island. Man, PAP should have pursuaded the Sultan of Johor to join Singapore when during the 1965 break off from the federation.

I'm sure the next time we have the opportunity to do so, we would definitely do it RIGHT !!! Smile

If Indonesia wants any confrontation with Singapore, then they will have to be prepared to lose the Riau islands.

Anyway, with all these war talks putting aside, I hope we all can learn to live in peace and not being so overly sensitive or insensitive. Malaysia has got to learn to not bully Singapore whenever they are about to go for election. That's not very neighbourly. B4 they complaint about Singapore anything, perhaps they should take a mirror and look at themselves first.

Why are they constantly trying to pull out the mote in one's eye but not a beam in their own?

Joe Black SG

I think that given RSN relationship with Kockums, it might be that RSN may extend that to getting new built boats from them. It is always good to have a second source of supplier just in case the first source does not continue a good relationship or somehow some politics get into the way.

My thoughts are that RSN should get either the Kockums A19 (or a variant of it) fitted with Stirling AIP or the German HDW U-212 (Type 212) with the fuel cells. The German made Israeli Dolphine will be my 2nd choice. The subs should be fitted with either the French Thomson-Sintra or German Atlas Elecronik bow sonars with the possibility of adding passive flank arrayed and a tow arrayed sonar.

Joe Black SG

mooncake SG

this is such an interesting topic you guys are discussing. i've been reading your posts everyday. i'm getting hooked on S'pore & it's military now.

Joe Black: about your comment "PAP SHOULD HAVE PERSUADED THE SULTAN OF JOHOR TO JOIN S'PORE DURING THE BREAK OFF FROM THE FEDERATION" i think that those were such dangerous times back in 1965 S'pore is really lucky to have gotten it's independance! S'pore had virtually no military of any kind & was in total mercy of malaysia. LKY & the entire 1st generation leaders could have been arrested & executed for treason if someone had more radical views were in charge of malaysia back then. if mahathir mohammad were PM, he would have killed LKY & his team & S'pore would have never been born. not to mention alot of ethnic chinese malaysians would have been purged too. if they had tried to persuade the sultan of johor to leave malaysia & join S'pore, it would have been unacceptable to kuala lumpur. it's hard to imagine today becasue S'pore is armed to the teeth but in the beginning of it's independance it was very scary.

tripwire: your views about indonesia & thailand taking large chunks of malaysia if it is at war with S'pore is very interesting. thailand i would have no doubt will make a move on malaysia but as for indonesia i have second thoughts. you forgot the "muslim" factor. if S'pore is at war with malaysia then won't the population of indonesia rise up to side with their islamic brothers of malaysia?? in fact i'm afraid that much of the entire muslim world would be bent on supporting malaysia! they would be sending funds & arms to help them fight S'pore. & god know's what the savages in both indonesia & malaysia do to the ethnic chinese in those 2 countries. we would see violence directed towards them worse than the anti chinese riots of the 60's & the one's in indonesia in 1997.

------------------
"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON

mooncake SG

btw i'm interested in S'pore's indigenious arms industry. but only found bits & pieces about it so far. if anyone has links regarding S'pore local weapon's producing capabilities please post some up here. thanks.

------------------
"Is it me or the sword you want?"~Jen Yu
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON

CX SG

Thats a flawed historical argument... Siam has officially renounced all claims to the 4 northern malay states since the mid-1800s... Burney treaty if my historical knowledge serves me correctly. Furthermore, it was never exactly considered sovereign Siamese territory to begin with... just token overlordship of the Siamese monarch. Any secondary school kid could've told you that.

And I'm not at all convinced that Thailand wants to absorb a troublesome Muslim population bigger than one which they already have to their south...

Lets not abuse history now... Any alteration of the status quo in this region through armed actions will be a violation of UN charter chapter VII and depending on who manages to get the UN to its side, the other side is going to get badly mauled...

The only exception Chapter VII allows for is self defence which I sense, is the official position of the SG government as well... It is no longer a pre-emptive strike to disable the enemy, but the capabilities to absorb a first strike and still be able to launch a counter-attack.

Doesn't sound very attractive to me, but I'm not the one setting the rules of engagement...

wombat SG

Came across an interesting article.
http://www.china-defense.com/commentary/armed_cargo_ships/armed_cargo_ships01.html

tripwire SG

Flush the UN down the toilet lah... everyone knows that UN cant enforce... they pass more resolution than i can count... and most, if not all would not have been enforceable without superpower agreement...

UN chapter 7?? give me a break... everybody can cry that they are the real victim... just take a look at isreal and palestinians... both sides are screaming that they are the victims... and wat can big butt secretary general do??

last i heard.... he was still busy kowtowing to american for payments just to pay his own salary!! THE UN is little more then a vehicle of convenice for superpowers... and if i have to convince the UN.. i might as well convince the G7... now ... those people really pull the strings.

And so wat if thailand renouce ownership to the northern four states of malaysia?? maharaja still havent give up on the 4 southern thai province to be part of malaysia!! and if there is NO malaysia... those states are gonna need a new ruler..... watever thai promise or vow about those states would hold no water... since malaysia by then no longer exist.

Borders always changes overtime... promise.. treaty.. vows... agreements or watever not... all gets changed over time OR through force of arms... bullet talks...

tripwire SG

the muslim factor... indeed.. i taken that into account... but also the military and political factor...

IT will goes something like this:

1 Singapore invade malaysia... burn KL .. kill all its ministers.. crush its military.

1A indonesia military contemplate on intervention.. but no enough money... weapon.. ship and planes...

2. singapore send a note to indonesia.... talk money and land.

3. Secret negotiation under the table... plan set.

4. Indonesian govt will whip up strong anti- singapore sentiment in jakarta... vow support for malay brothers... indonesian politician win like mad... windfall man.

5. Singapore theaten to attack east malaysia..

6. Indonesia launch a full scale 'rescue' mission into east malaysia to preempt... further sufferings of their remaining malay muslim brothers from singapore invasion tyranny... indonesian military leaders laugh all the way to kuching....happy like fuck.

7. indonesia vows to protect east malaysia as long as singapore remains in peninsula malaysia (which will be for a long long time)

7A. singapore call off east malaysia invasion out of 'fear' of indonesian 'power'.. indonesian politician and military become hero if not demi-god in the eyes of indonesian.

8. thailand see indonesia win like siao... get jeolous also... many thai politician also want to be call hero... thai nationalism fever reach a peak... before long... thailand also want to talk about the 'kingdom of siam'

9 before long... everyone comes in under a UN broker peace treaty... singapore takes over southern peninsula malaysia.. thailand.. the northern half of peninsula malaysia while indonesia will be the new defender of east malaysia.

see... everyone wins...

tripwire SG

From EZ board..eh.... how the hell malaysia got 5 division??? with less then 100,000 men.. malaysia got 5 division??? if i remember correctly.. malaysia originally only have 3 division with 110,000 men... now they got less man.. yet more division???

then singapore with more then 350,000 men would have at least 25 divisions since each division only have about 13,000 men!!

not bad.... 25 division against 4 division.... so... who u gonna bet on?

AHHHH.... i see ... malaysia playing copycat again!! last time singapore also have 3 division.. the 3rd, 6th and 9th division... malaysia then also have 3 division...

but ... later singapore restructured its division into combined arms division and form 2 additional division... namely the 21st and 25th division...

so... malaysia obviously for the benefit of its moronic population decided to also have 5 division.. least, its people query about how come singapore got 5... but malaysia only got 3!!

malaysia is really a funny country... in fact last time.. when malaysia first gained independence... their govt promoted dozens of colonels and majors to generals including 4 star and 3 star generals OVERNIGHT!! despite the fact that malaysia only have a few bridgade of units then!!.... they sure dont like to loose face....

and just afew years back... the malaysian chief of armed forces an army 4 star general chided the RMAF 3 star general for trying to get one more star on his shoulder when RMAF is only 1/3 the size of RSAF but only have a 2 star general!!

And it was rumored that the RMAF general lamented in return that SAF is 4 times the size of MAF.. but SAF chief of defence force only got 3 star... why MAF chief got 4 star!!

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