Jesus was a Hindu Monk and Survived the Cross

last SG · 2011-12-07T15:08:38+00:00

Tcmc,1. And I shall again emphasize this. You demand for empirical proofs that miracles happened 2000 years ago. You claimed, at the very least, that miracle...

BroInChrist SG

Oh sorry I misread your statements.

My worldview is held by faith? No it's not. :) I dont believe in things that lack evidence. THat is I dont believe in ghosts, spirits, angels, elves, fairies etc etc.

Can you explain to me how I use "faith"?

Tcmc, Try something different can? Instead if telling us what you don't believe, why don't you share with us what you beliwve about the world we live in and the nature of reality? I'm sure you don't define your belief system purely by what you are against, ya? That would be a parasitic way of forming a worldview.

reasonable.atheist SG

reasonable.atheist,

The issue is, is naturalism true? Does it explain the ultimate questions of life? Does naturalism explain why the universe exists? Why the laws of logic exists? Why life exists? etc etc?

In all honest, BIC, I have limited interest in debating you. We've tried that before, and we didn't get anywhere. If you can insist on a 6,000-year-old earth despite all the scientific evidence, and despite the fallibility of the biblical text, nothing I say will change your mind. I don't even want to ask your justification for the slaughter of the Amalekites including children and animals, or your position on slavery and homosexuality.

My interest here is to engage other Christians and atheists, but if no other Christian feels up to my challenges, I'll be happy to take a back seat.

I will just say this and let you have the last word.

I do not have answers for why the universe exists, or why we have the beauty of mathematics. Or why the natural laws exist.

It is of course easy to posit "God" as the explanation for any unanswered questions, as the ancients did. However, this is a cop-out.

1. The answers to some of these questions may come tens or hundreds or thousands of years after we die. After all, primitive man thought that rain was God's blessing, and it took hundreds of years before we understood the water cycle. But we eventually did, and the record suggests that we too will find naturalistic explanations for knotty questions in cosmology, abiogenesis and medicine.

2. Some of these answers are naturalistic, but may be beyond what human beings can understand. Even today, quantum mechanics is so counter-intuitive, so difficult that very few scientists truly understand it. Perhaps, we are nearing the frontier of what our puny human brains can comprehend.

3. Some of these questions may never actually have answers. What is the meaning of life? Well, perhaps our lives have no greater meanings than the ones we assign to them.

In each of these of these scenarios, we don't have the answers today, but it doesn't automatically mean we should turn to God. Again, it is of course possible that a deity is running the show behind the scenes, but the naturalistic and scientific worldview has explained almost everything around us so far. I'm in effect betting my life eternal that it will explain plenty more of these unanswered questions yet.

BroInChrist SG

... 6,000-year-old earth despite all the scientific evidence, and despite the fallibility of the biblical text, nothing I say will change your mind. I don't even want to ask your justification for the slaughter of the Amalekites including children and animals...

You shouldn't fault me for being stedfast in my beliefs if you are just as insistent on yours. Will you be convinced by me to change your mind? The answer is obvious. Again the batlle is to be fought at the level of worldviews. Throwing evidence at you will just be an exercise in futility if you are not interpreting the evidence through the right worldview.

reasonable.atheist SG

Funny how you talk about the futility of throwing evidence at me, and yet provide not a single shred beyond the mysterious and the unknown. If that is not the definition of a God of the Gaps argument, I don't know what is.

And of course my mind can be changed. My position was shifted towards deeper atheism in recent years by Richard Dawkins, and it can be yet moved in either direction given the evidence.So far, though, you have simply done a poor job at doing so.

And I do seek out knowledge from either side. I listen, for example, to the excellent Unbelieveable? podcast, which airs on Christian radio, is hosted by a Christian, and recently organized William Lane Craig's tour in the UK. Which atheist programs do YOU follow?

P.S. Is it me, or is the forum acting up today? I'm only seeing excerpts of some posts.

BroInChrist SG

P.S. Is it me, or is the forum acting up today? I'm only seeing excerpts of some posts.

reasonable.atheist, If you refuse to see that our worldviews determines how we approach the evidence then I submit to you that any further exchange will be moot. You claim to have been much influenced by Dawkins. I'm sure many have been as well. But have you read Jonathan Sarfati's book that refutes Dawkin's Greatest Show on Earth? If not then I don't think you have done justice to hearing from the other side. I don't follow atheist radio or internet programs. But I do read books written by atheists so please do not think that you are the only one doing some catching up with tbe views of the opposition.

BroInChrist SG

BIC

Actually there's nothing wrong to say that God did it. But take note, you are saying it by faith and not by empirical evidence.

SO that means, anyone WHO has faith can attribute the formation of the universe to their Gods.

Because it's by faith.

Tcmc, Similarly it is faith that you believe the universe made itself. So it is special pleading for you to find fault with my faith but not yours.

BroInChrist SG

My interest here is to engage other Christians and atheists, but if no other Christian feels up to my challenges, I'll be happy to take a back seat.

I will just say this and let you have the last word.

I do not have answers for why the universe exists, or why we have the beauty of mathematics. Or why the natural laws exist.

It is of course easy to posit "God" as the explanation for any unanswered questions, as the ancients did. However, this is a cop-out.

3. Some of these questions may never actually have answers. What is the meaning of life? Well, perhaps our lives have no greater meanings than the ones we assign to them.

reasonable.atheist, If you do not know the answer to the ultimate questions of life and your worldview is unable to supply those answers, why do you want to throw rocks at my house when you do not have a roof over your own head? Not only that you repeatedly caricature the Christian answer as God of the gaps yet fail to see that yours is a naturalism of the gaps argument. In any case Christians are not saying God did it because we don't know the answer, but it is because we KNOW that chance random natural processes are UNABLE to aacount for the things in question and we KNOW that intelligent design is the best explanation. It does not violate logic or reason, the only thing it contradicts is your belief in naturalism, a worldview you hold and cling to by faith.

Rooney_07 SG

In all honest, BIC, I have limited interest in debating you.

dun bother, cos this chap replies and answers will leave you dumbfounded to the point, you are not in awe of his ability to think and argue, but warped rationale that is really unbelievable. you really have to hand it to him for this kind of incoherence and illogic.

Rooney_07 SG

Thanks for agreeing with me that anyone who has faith can attribute the formation of the universe to their respective Gods.

Thanks also for agreeing that faith is essentially void of evidence.

their evidence is the bible. they believed in this dope with no doubt. so in essence god only exists in bible, the way superman exists in DC comics and movies

reasonable.atheist SG

What is the Sun?
Religion: The sun is a God. Either that, or it's a gift from God.
Science: A sun is a massive lump of plasma held together by gravity.

What are the stars?
Religion: The stars are gifts from Gods.
Science: The stars are distant suns, with their lights reaching us from hundreds of years in the past.

What is rain?
Religion: Rain is a gift from God.
Science: Rain is part of a water cycle, where water moves from various states in our environment before coming down as rain.

How did Man come about?
Religion: God made Man out of thin air, and Woman using a part of Man.
Science: Human beings are evolved from millions of years of evolution, which explains our similarities with the great apes, among other things.

Why is this couple unable to have children?
Religion: Infertility is a punishment from God. Pray for redemption.
Science: Infertility is a medical condition. It may be treatable.

Why is this dude writhing on the ground?
Religion: He has been possessed by a demon. He needs an exorcism.
Science: He has epilepsy. He needs treatment.

What was the first origin of the universe?
Religion: The universe was made by God.
Science: We are not sure if there is such a thing as a first origin of the universe. We have theories like the M-theory, but these require much more investigation.

How was the first self-replicable cell reated?
Religion: It was made by God.
Science: We don't know for sure. There are theories using RNA, but these require further investigation. The element of chance could have played a part as well.

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All but the last two questions have been satisfatorily answered by science (your denial of evolution notwithstanding). Furthermore, as I suggested above, the scientific method not only provides answers, it provides ways to run tests and predictions, such that we now have real ways of inducing rain (instead of praying), predicting the motion of distant "heavenly" bodies, and treating both physical and mental illnesses.

For most of these questions, the religious answers have been all but debunked. And yet modern-day Christian evangelists take refuge in the yet-unanswered questions, proffering the same God explanation that served ancients thousands of years ago.

You accuse me of "clinging" to naturalism by faith. If you look at the respective track records of science versus religion, you'll find that science has utterly trounced religion in its ability to explain the world around us. If I had to bet on the next few unanswered questions, I would say that science will most likely provide the better answer -- once again.

And then I predict that the Christian apologists will shift to the next unanswered questions, and claim to see God's active hand in them. Classic God-of-the-Gaps. If there's a caricature, I'm afraid you've drawn it yourself.

BroInChrist SG

What is the Sun?
Religion: The sun is a God. Either that, or it's a gift from God.
Science: A sun is a massive lump of plasma held together by gravity.

--------------------

reasonable.atheist, It is clear that you have chosen to engage in caricaturing the Christian answers to make reliogion esp Christianity look bad. Tell me, which Christian will disagree with a scientific explanation of how things work under Experimental Science? You seem to again forgot that modern science was born out of a Christian worldview. So for you to perpetuate some kind of eternal warfare between science and religion is to perpetuate an insidious myth. In fact, the question of the origins of the universe would capture the whole debate. You believe the universe made itself but I believe the universe was made by God. Both are religious beliefs about the origins of the universe. Question is, which is the most reasonable explanation?

reasonable.atheist SG

I don't think I misrepresented the "answers" provided by religion at all. That is exactly how the ancients believed it: God made the sun, God made it rain, God made the earth, and so on. Instead, we later found that the real reasons were more interesting and more complex.

To say that modern science was born out of a Christian worldview is incorrect. I would argue that modern science progressed despite a Christian worldview. Just as Socrates died for his rejection of the state religion, Galileo was persecuted for heliocentrism amd Darwin famously grappled with his religious views.

You say that God made the universe, but I don't say that the universe made itself. I say this:

So unlike you, I don't claim to know the answer. Maybe the universe made itself. Maybe we'll find that Godzilla gave birth to the universe. Whichever the case, I do think that the scientific is far more likely to yield an answer than religion would.

BroInChrist SG

You say that God made the universe, but I don't say that the universe made itself. I say this:

It is always easy to demolish strawman arguments and you have completely ignored what I said. Instead you insist on saying that the ancient people believed that and simply ascribed them to me. If I deny the scientific explanation then you at least have a case, but I don't. So please respond to MY arguments rather than attack strawman points. That modern science owes its rise to the Christian worldview is a well documented fact of history. You show me your evidence that it is despite of and I will show you that it is because of. Fair challenge to you, you up to it? As to the origins of the universe, you again appeal to ignorance and a fallback on scientism and naturalism. Appeal to future knowledge is moot. I can also rebutt that by saying that in future science will prove that God did it, so? Please stick to what we know now and not make a fallacious argument from ignorance. As it now stands you are guilty of a naturalism of the gaps argument. Which is to say, we don't know how the universe made itself but surely no God did it, it must be a natural process that science has yet to discover. If this is not naturalism of the gaps then I don't know what is.

Lucifer_tan SG

What is the Sun?
Religion: The sun is a God. Either that, or it's a gift from God.
Science: A sun is a massive lump of plasma held together by gravity.

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yes you can see the answers provided by the zealots, so simple and naive. thank goodness for science. dun think a 3 year old kid will also believe those replies given.

Yes christians will attribute science as the work of god in a deflective way that disguise their earlier failings to explain nature, the manner science is able to.

BroInChrist SG

yes you can see the answers provided by the zealots, so simple and naive. thank goodness for science. dun think a 3 year old kid will also believe those replies given.

Yes christians will attribute science as the work of god in a deflective way that disguise their earlier failings to explain nature, the manner science is able to.

Thank goodness for science? What goodness are you talking about? You should be thanking God for science, and give credit to the Christian worldview that provided the impetus for modern science.

sgdiehard SG

Thank goodness for science? What goodness are you talking about? You should be thanking God for science, and give credit to the Christian worldview that provided the impetus for modern science.

He is lucifer, you know?

Lucifer_tan SG

Thank goodness for science? What goodness are you talking about? You should be thanking God for science, and give credit to the Christian worldview that provided the impetus for modern science.

thats nonsense, utter nonsense. denial as usual. what a load of crap your claim is.

even a 3 year old kid wont believe what you have said.

BroInChrist SG

He is lucifer, you know?

Yes I am well aware that he purposely chose a nick that would be a direct affront to the Christian. In fact I doubt his surname is Tan too. He is simply playing on the SATan name. He does not hide the fact that he is a troll out to troll here, and his responses pretty well confirmed that. This is just an account newly created today to troll the forum here.

winsomeea SG

hahahah, hahahahahhahahaha! or kong or ching ho chio

Turbulent Times SG

wow, you guys are still at it??? Looks like even TCMC had given up discussing and arguing, from the lack of posts here.

I posted the video to offer a possibility to the story of Jesus and at the same time a controversial new idea.

Thought Jesus went to Narnia and was taught by Darth Vader? Or were you guys arguing that it was actually Dumbledore, instead of Darth Vader?

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