Healings are craps!

last SG · 2010-01-05T20:13:18+00:00

According to christians, if it is God's will to heal the person, the person will be healed. In a way, we can confirm that God is practising favouritism. F...

despondent SG

to dadeadman:

gd tat u are quoting the bible...read Ephesians chapter 2. it speaka abt salvation from christian perspective. key verses would be Ephesians 2:8-9.

''For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.

the issue of salvation is not abt salvation by grace and then? yes, after salvation by grace comes gd works but wad was the factor tat gave us salvation in the 1st place? was it grace or good works?other religions teach tat its good works but christianity teaches its by grace. then after we are saved by grace, good works start to count. tats y the christians will be judged for rewards based on gd works we did AFTER we were saved. plus, the bible also records tat we will be held accountable for our bad deeds. hence, good works play an impt role in christianity but not in the area of salvation. you can say tat it doesnt make sense but my purpose of sharing this is to let u noe the perspective of christianity and tat its diff from other religions. hence, the evaluation of christianity shld not be the same as other religions...

dadeadman1337 SG

What is that 80,000? I have already quote the evolutionist who acknowledged that there's no evidence at all to support the theory. It's just trying to steer people away from creationism. That has not work so far, going by the strength of Christians worldwide.

If you want evidence, you can wait and see. Without faith, you will not receive a miracle, none.

Did you enjoy success in persuading people to quit the religion with your words so far?

I was mistaken, not 80k yearly but the number of visitors number the millions. Taking into perspective, 35 "miracles" out of millions, the healings statistically amount to nothing but chance. Hypothetically, even if evolution was wrong, would creation automatically be right? We don't live in a multiple choice world, where every answer is already laid on the table. You say that there is no evidence to support evolution, may I see your evidence for creation? If one has faith, as you say, would it not be possible for them to see an occurrence that has a valid explanation but think that it is a miracle?

To your last sentence, the answer is yes, a few.

dadeadman1337 SG

to dadeadman:

gd tat u are quoting the bible...read Ephesians chapter 2. it speaka abt salvation from christian perspective. key verses would be Ephesians 2:8-9.

''For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.

Would both grace and works be inseparable then? Without grace you have no need for good works, but without good works, grace wouldn't save you either. In the end, would good works not be a deciding factor?

googoomuck SG

To your last sentence, the answer is yes, a few.

67 is the number of official proclamation of miracles that had passed the strict requirements by the Lourdes Medical Bureau.

An exstimated 5 million visitors go to Lourdes every year.

"No one leaves Lourdes without a gain in faith. Moral and spiritual cures are more marvelous than physical cures. Some go to Lourdes with lifetime prejudices, yet their minds are cleared in a sudden manner. Frequently skepticism gives way to faith; coldness and antagonism become whole hearted love of God. Again and again those who are not cured of bodily pain receive an increase of faith and resignation – true peace of soul."

Lourdes alone can easily add many, many more believers to outdo your 'claim' of drawing a few away from Christianity.

Larryteo SG

67 is the number of official proclamation of miracles that had passed the strict requirements by the Lourdes Medical Bureau.

An exstimated 5 million visitors go to Lourdes every year.

Lourdes alone can easily add many, many more believers to outdo your 'claim' of drawing a few away from Christianity.

Why not you pay for all of our air tickets there, we will stopover at Paris using SIA and then we will fly Air France to a nearby airport. =)

dadeadman1337 SG

67 is the number of official proclamation of miracles that had passed the strict requirements by the Lourdes Medical Bureau.

An exstimated 5 million visitors go to Lourdes every year.

Lourdes alone can easily add many, many more believers to outdo your 'claim' of drawing a few away from Christianity.

No one? Many who go to mecca also claim spiritual benefits, as do the millions of people from other religions at their holy places, it seems that the main attraction is not really a god. When you say frequently, how many do you mean? Perhaps people who are said to accept their condition have given up hope in any miracle after a failed visit to get healed

despondent SG

not realli...u see the bible is categorised into the Old Testament and the New testament. the people of the OT were saved by good works while those in the NT were saved by grace. the deciding factor tat caused this change is jesus'death on the cross which was a perfect sacrifice and redeemed all who acknowledge him. good works in christian context is the evidence of ur salvation but it is not the element of ur salvation. the element of salvation is grace. there is a big diff btw the evidence of salvation and the element of salvation. one is the cause of salvation while the other is the effects of salvation. so to answer ur qn, in a way they are inseparable but they are not the same. u cannot conclude tat christianity teaches salvation by good works juz cos good works is of great importance...

ok, put it simply...does any other religion even teach anything abt salvation by grace? from wad i noe, most dun(if not all)...they teach salvation by good works, nth about salvation by grace...even then, they are divided when it comes to defining wad good works are...for such religions, the element of salvation is good works...the cause of salvation is by good works...i hope this makes things clearer...feel free to ask if u stil dun get it...

stupidissmart SG

see, u cannot use a case of blissful marriage(in this case MM Lee and wife) and say tat its irreuftable evidence cos wad works for MM Lee may not necessarily work for all...u cannot expect a person looking for irrefutable evidence to trust his marriage will not end in divorce juz cos there are blissful ones ard...cos u see, there are also divorces...so the pt here is, there is no irrefutable(universal) evidence tat marriages will be blissful cos how do u explain the divorces?

I did not say MM lee method will work for u or ask u to follow them. I just stated the irrefutable fact tat there r people with happy and blissful marriages. There r people who live as a couple together till one die. Your first question is really "so does tat mean blissful marriages dun exist?" If one exist, then blissful marriages exist isn't it ? SO your first question is answered.

and there is a second question u asked "there may be happy marriages ard but there are also divorces...so where is the irrefutable evidence tat i wun end up divorced if i get married?". Now there is no irrefutable evidence tat u will not end up divorced. In truth, u have a chance to be divorced. Why will there be irrefutable truth to something tat is not true ?

note tat u cannot say 1st get married then work the marriage out cos that is like saying tat enter the religion then find out if God exist...the premises of this argument is while i am not yet married, prove to me tat when i get married, my marriage wun end in divorce...onli if it can be proven(irrefutably) then i get married. its the same idea as prove to me God exist then i believe...

I see the argument differently from u based on the same marriage. I want my marriage to be successful too, and wat I do is to do some study, communicate with my girlfriend, see if we can be together and gauge how we can resolve problem etc. When I am convinced tat we could be together forever, then I commit and marry.

For u, u r asking people to anyhow believe first then see if it is true or not. It is like saying u r asking people to anyhow marry first then see if u end up in divorce. If u start to anyhow "believe" and then find out it is not true, then u "divorce" god and jump into another religion immediately ?

and finally on your good grace thing, wat it teaches doesn't help in making it seems true. It can talk all he cock and bull in the world like other religion or cults but it doesn't make it more believable. Just because it saves by grace then it is true ?

despondent SG

oh yes, i tink u havent fully understood wad we mean by a perfect sacrifice. a perfect sacrifice means a sacrifice tat is eternal and done by a sinless being. so when u ask isnt good works a deciding factor at the end...the answer is yes if u are toking abt rewards but no if u are toking abt salvation. cos when we acknowledge and accept wad christ has done for us, the sacrifice being perfect would imply tat we are redeemed forever. u see, ur focus is on the end result(deciding factor) but in christianity, we look at salvation in entirety(beginning to end). so if u see a christian who lead life carelessly then u may qn if he was truly saved since good works is the effects/evidence for salvation. but before one is a christian, does his good works get him saved? the answer is no. in other words, the good works are "not counted'''...however for most other religions, are the good works counted, the answer is yes.

one reason why i feel u look at the end result is cos ur concept of salvation is abt the end result only. however, in christianity, salvation is the beginning result which is suppose to last for eternity with good works being the evidence of tat salvation. i have to remind u again tat tat good works is the evidence not the element of salvation...

despondent SG

to stupidissmart:

i would appreciate if u leave me n dadeadman to discuss wad we have been discussing. cos u havent been following our discussion which was brought over from the other thread so u will tend to make false accusations of where i am actually coming from. i nvr once toked abt why salvation by grace is true...dadeadman and i have been discussing more abt definitions of terms rather than who is rite and wrong...so unless u go back and trace our discussions, i would appreciate if u leave us alone for this...if not, i am juz going to ignore ur ranting...

despondent SG

and juz cos u commit and marry after u are sure doesnt mean u 100% wun get divorced eventually...hai...like i said...u havent been following our discussion...

despondent SG

last thing, look at dadeadman's reply at the top of this page...ever wondered why he said tat? he said tat after he understood fully where i was coming from...initially he felt there was evidence...it was when i made myself clearer did he change his answer...

despondent SG

to dadeadman:

hey referring to ur earlier post...u said '' for christians, this means jesus' death?'' well, u need to be clear tat jesus' death is so tat he can pay for our sins. however, salvation in christianity is not juz the death of jesus but also the resurrection of jesus. its the resurrection tat symbolises jesus victory over death and sin. if jesus died and didnt resurrect, then we would still be condemned. so u cannot juz look at his death. its the death and resurrection tat make up the complete sacrifice and salvation.

dadeadman1337 SG

I don't think that other religions actually teach that if you perform good deeds you are guaranteed a place in heaven, it would depend on what their god's decision ultimately, whether or not they have been good or bad. So I think that every religion,with a god, whether religious leaders emphasized or not, actually has simillarities with "grace" in christianity.

As for good works being evidence of your salvation, i find that to be untrue. You previously said "redeemed all who acknowledge him". There remain many non-christians who are good people. It would also be ridiculous to assume that everyone born before jesus(if he was real), did not perform good deeds. Also, I heard from a christian that everyone before jesus went either to purgatory or hell, not sure how true this is.

despondent SG

but the pt i am trying to raise is christianity doesnt teach salvation like other religions...its not a matter of whether u find ridiculous or not...tats besides the point...plus i dun tink u shld gauge christianity using ur own understanding cos by doing so are u saying tat the fundamental teachings of christianity is wrong and ur interpretation is rite? its no wonder u keep evaluating christianity like other religions cos u juz cannot agree that it has always been diff...i mean i can read up on buddhism and say...no, i dun agree tat buddha was a human being...i insist(by my own interpretation) tat he is God for eg...u see wad i mean? can i as 1 individual alter and correct the fundamental teachings of another religion juz cos i see it tat way? no, i accept tat since buddhism say buddha is not god, then tat is their teaching...i am in no position to alter it...

despondent SG

like u said...u find it untrue. but u cun impose ur interpretation on other religions. if u insist on doing tat, then ur mindset abt christianity will always be tat its the same as other religions...i feel tat when it comes to wad a religion teaches, we shld always take wad is tot to its followers...being an outsider to the religion, we cannot expect ourselves to noe the religion betta than its followers...

dadeadman1337 SG

My disagreement was not with the teachings, but with the assumption that good works was evidence of salvation. For this to be true, no one but christians would be doing good deeds. I don't think that anywhere in my previous post did I make any claim about interpretations.

dadeadman1337 SG

Thats not my interpretation that good works is not evidence for salvation, as whether you are christian or not, you can do good, religion has no monopoly on this. It is not my interpretation of christian doctrine, more of a non-religious assertion.

despondent SG

actually wad i said abt evidence of salvation is valid in the eyes of christians cos tats our teaching...but maybe u are not ready for tat yet since u are still viewing christianity from salvation by good works...maybe i didnt make myself clear...i didnt mean tat onli christians can do gd...all can do gd...but in the perspective of christianity, onli the good works of believers count to God...cos we are living in New Testament times....this may sound ridiculous to u but i noe tat any christian who noes the fundamental teachings and abide by them would agree wif me...at least those christians ard me do...

dadeadman1337 SG

Would you care to reply to my post on the previous page about a system simillar to grace in other religions?

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