Views abt Joseph Prince from New Creation

last SG · 2009-08-07T10:28:53+00:00

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SPDCP SG

How do you know it is not true? Got proof? Just curious...

Even if I do not have proof, it is still none of our business! If I were to say terrible things against you, things which you could not prove were false, how would you handle it? Would you like it?

"Every interpretation is also from the Bible.. " but only his own interpretation and many more people have their own interpretation too....so which is "unadulterated Gospel"? And who decides?

The Holy Spirit decides... And it is reflected by growth. If a shepherd is lousy and his food is of no/low quality, the sheep will suffer and die off eventually...

he even suggest that NT starts with Acts and that the 4 Gospels are considered OT

This is because the New Covenant is enforced once the Old Covenant has been fulfilled. And for that to happen, Jesus must die on the cross. So it was only near the end of the 4 gospels that that event occured. Therefore, the New Covenant began in Acts, the first chapter AFTER Jesus had risen ...

and Ps Prince does not decide where the bookstores put the book.. they can put it in the food section for all we care... seriously thats not even a valid argument.. cmon..

I know people from ncc tells me that ncc give 10% of their collection to charities (where did bal 90% goes?) but is money everything? A lot of Churches are providing education, shelter, nursing homes, hospice and even hospital to do exactly what Jesus did - reaching out to the poor, needy, neglected and marginalised. And many of these Churches do not even teach tithing....which is another dubious point of contention.

Churches who do not teach on tithing are robbing the people, and robbing God as stated in Malachi. As for us, MINIMUM 10% is going out.. it is usually more...

the 90% that should remain is used to pay the pastors, the staff and the maintenance, as well as for the rental fees for the space we use.. also, now with the new building project, a considerable sum in going into building Gods house.

Now, please dont quote me " but we dont need a building to worship, we are Gods temple now!" ... I might as well ask you to hold your services on the lawn in fort canning.. or at Padang..

Jesus Himself called the Temple that Herod, a heathan emperor built " My fathers house"

The building is in anycase, a more practical solution to our space needs.. cheaper in the long run.. plus, with the recession, its getting cheaper.. so we can spend less money..

I think i said enough.. its late and i got internship tmr.. thanks all for reading.. cya..

Happyinfo2 SG

Even if I do not have proof, it is still none of our business! If I were to say terrible things against you, things which you could not prove were false, how would you handle it? Would you like it?

Actually, I agrees with you but just wonder why you said it is not true......so seems like it is not true because you think it is not and not a fact. I thought you have proof so that this rummour can be dispel once and for all.....

The Holy Spirit decides...

Who said so? The Scripture? If everyone claims that, nobody will know the Word Of God and the truth. Everyone will claim the same authority for their interpretations and who is right?

So, I believed you can't say for sure that prince is preaching "unadulterated Gospel" because it is so only to you and ncc members....and not necessarily the fact.

and Ps Prince does not decide where the bookstores put the book.. they can put it in the food section for all we care... seriously thats not even a valid argument.. cmon..

That argument is unique only to ncc I suppose......while imo, it should start with the birth of Christ and begining of the salvation story. More important, it was Jesus's teaching and example that is what NT is about......while act is the starting era where His aposoltes spread the Gospel and teachings according to Christ (as spelt out in the 4 Gospels). NT Christians are followers of Christ isn't it?

It seems strange why no bookstore would thinks his book shoulld be sold as religious book when it is written by a "famous pastor"........and that speaks volume...and with regards to "Prince does not decide where the bookstores put the book" again, is this a fact you know or just your personal opinion?

Churches who do not teach on tithing are robbing the people, and robbing God as stated in Malachi. As for us, MINIMUM 10% is going out.. it is usually more...

More like Churches that teach tithing are robbing the people.......never had Jesus said we should tithe 10%....maybe you should read

1. http://www.ukapologetics.net/tithe.htm

2. http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

and you can google more to learn the truth about tithing. And how tithe is used or misused by some for personal wealth.....while there are many people around the world in need of help......so how does that matches up to the teaching of our Lord?

Yes, we all need a place to worhsip and building a church is not a problem.....but one north is not a church.....as "Rock Productions has provided a legal undertaking to JTC that the venue will be managed strictly on a commercial basis and will not be converted into a religious facility"

If truely a church is needed, they can get a freehold land and building which will cost them much lesser......

I think above undertaking by Rock is quite clear that the huge investments on a leasehold place is really for commercial purposes seeking for monetary returns so that stake holder will get richer.....

You are right that Jesus never turn away from anyone who need His help. In fact, He is always reaching out to the poor, needy, neglected and marginalised. He help regardless and it was His act of love that converts and it is His act of love that he showed Christians how one can live their faith - By loving one's neighbour. This is His commandents to Christians in NT and every of the 10 commandments can be replaced by this commandment - Love.

So is giving 10% or more of money to charities the way to do God's will? Did Jesus just give away money to the poor and needy?

It is not only financial assistance that people need, also emotional and spiritual......and that is why true Churches that do what they preach mobilise their people to reach out to the poor, needy, neglected and marginalised by taking actions.....

They build schools, shelter, nursing homes, hospice and even hospital to do exactly what Jesus did - reaching out to the poor, needy, neglected and marginalised. This is the way to spread God's love and let those in need know that there is love (from God) and give these people hope....and people who are touched by God will have faith and converts....and this is how true Christians who heard the Word of God will take actions to live their lives as Christians and be a light to the world and messengers of Christ.

After all, Jesus said he is here to serve rather than be served. As His followers, don't you think we should do the same? I.E. to serve like Jesus?

Read MT25....

"Whoever fails to love does not know God, because God is love." (1Jn 4:8)

So where does ncc stand on this?

SPDCP SG

First of all, I do not represent NCC in any capacity.. I am simply a student who attends NCC.. All posts here are from my own personal opinion... I am not a leader(yet), i only serve as lightsman for the Youth Ministry. All mistakes are my own. NCC does not post on forums, all correspondences should take place in the form of a written letter either to the press, or through a public announcement on the website or during services.. So asking where does NCC stand is not the right question im afraid.. haha.. It should be, where do I stand.. Oh and even though my nick is SPDCP, i also do not represent Singapore Poly Dip. Chem Process as a spokesman... xD

Now, let me try to answer you from the bottom up.. i think its gonna be a really long post...

Read MT25...

Matthew 25 verses 1 to 13 is actually prophesying that when Jesus returns, half the Jews will be ready, while the other half will be ready after the tribulation. Why? Because the 10 virgins are not the brides, but the bridesmaids.. The church is referred to as the Bride of Christ, who is according to the custom, already inside waiting for the groom to arrive..

Verses 14 to 30 is about managing God's money. Here, it states that the servants who invested the masters money were praised, while the one who hid it away, was reprimanded for it.. the master also said, even if you did not invest, at the very least, put it in the bank.. Investing is praised, banking it is bare minimum... The One North building is not just a place for us to congregate, but also serves the dual purpose of having invested the Lord's money, all of which will go into the church, and not the pockets of the pastors. They hold the shares only on behalf of the church. They are not allowed to touch any of the money.. All of it is signed in New Creation Church's name, not Pastor Prince..

The pastors salaries are decided by the board of renumeration and through specific offerings.. everything is taxed and documented..

The remaining verses are for Christians to rejoice by.. when they would receive their rewards for taking on His righteousness and not their own... Those who did not depend on their righteousness, were accepted. Those who did, were not..

So is giving 10% or more of money to charities the way to do God's will? Did Jesus just give away money to the poor and needy?

Jesus did not just give money, in fact, He gave people a way to get money for themselves. He healed the sick, injured, handicapped, unclean, demonized, the best part.. even the dead.. allowing them to work for their own keep. But then, the question stands, what is God's will?

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" -Hebrews 10:9

Hebrews 10:9 also answers this question... There, it says that the first must first be taken away, so that the second may be established... I may use this analogy: You cannot recontract your mobile line, until the first one is removed. If you do, it is unlawful. God must go by His own rules. If He wants to establish a New Covenant, the Old must first be settled with. And it can only be settled with a payment, that none of us can pay.

Now, i want to address this question :

I wonder why you think that we do not, or are currently not participating in such things? Just this monday, we sent a a team to Thailand on mission. End of October, the Poly Cluster are going to a Home for Children with Cerebral Palsy to heal and to bless them with company. 10% minimum goes out to support various charities and causes. Its not that we are not doing such things, but that we are not broadcasting it to the world to hear.. Why? Its none of the worlds business , thats first.. second, we are not glorifying ourselves... A man who shouts : HEY! I DONATED $100000 compared to the one who gives $100000 in silence, you can see if they desire approval from man or not..

And how tithe is used or misused by some for personal wealth.....while there are many people around the world in need of help......so how does that matches up to the teaching of our Lord?

All the tithes immediately go into the Church's bank account, not Ps Princes... Every withdrawal must be documented and taxed where applicable... As for the "many people around the world" argument... they sound just like Judas Iscariot..

^"4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, ⁵"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages."

What was Jesus answer? in Verse 7: ⁷"Leave her alone." Likewise I say to those critics, Leave us alone..

Yes, we all need a place to worhsip and building a church is not a problem.....but one north is not a church.....as "Rock Productions has provided a legal undertaking to JTC that the venue will be managed strictly on a commercial basis and will not be converted into a religious facility"

If truely a church is needed, they can get a freehold land and building which will cost them much lesser......

Areas that are zoned for religious purposes are limited to only 30 year terms.. not 99 or 999... also, you are right... One North is NOT a church.. it merely is a place where the church congregates.. and we have already measured the costs.. you dont pump $550 million into a project without first considering all other options...

I think above undertaking by Rock is quite clear that the huge investments on a leasehold place is really for commercial purposes seeking for monetary returns so that stake holder will get richer...

You are right! Rock is a commercial company.. It was created to make money... If Rock does not make money, then it is a loser company.. Thank God it is making money... As for shareholders... there is only 1 shareholder... NCC... So Rock is seeking monetary returns so that the church is richer... not the pastor..

More like Churches that teach tithing are robbing the people.......never had Jesus said we should tithe 10%...

Jesus did teach on tithing... I am sure everyone has read Luke 15.. I hope none has thought that it is all about the same thing.. There is no insignificant detail in the Bible..

In the first parable in luke 15, Jesus talks about the lost sheep. Instantly you can identify the lost sheep to be the church. When Jesus found the church, he left everything else to go save that church...

the second parable, is no longer about the shepherd. it is a woman. The church is also depicted as a woman. A woman who has lost 1 silver coin out of 10... what is 1/10 of the church's money? The tithe! Jesus says, if the church has lost the tithe, she should light a lamp, literally meaning obtain wisdom/revelation, and search the house for the tithe.. and upon finding it, rejoices..

The last one we all know the famous prodigal son, The Father, finding the lost son...

So Jesus did in fact teach about tithing.. in fact, he taught more on money than on prayer.. 16 out of Christ's 38 parables deal with money...

Please.. this is common sense.. if not, then go to any bookstore and ask if the authors decide or the bookstore decides.. Also, to say that "NO" bookstore would put it in the right place is a fallacy.. how many out of 100 have you actually gone to check? i believe all of us have better things to do with our time.. I, for one, have always seen it in its proper place in Borders, Kinokuniya, MPH, Times, and Popular.. at least, the ones that i have been to anyway..

God says that light was created before the Sun. So that means if i nuke the sun into dust, there would still be light.. Anyone can prove it? No? Then are you calling God a liar?

I can say that i was late because i could not find my keys for half an hour... but in actual fact, i was watching TV... no one was at home besides me.. Will you believe me even without proof? simple logic.. mrs xxx can rumor about my magnificent key losing abilities.. but no proof to show that i was actually watching tv..

Who said so? The Scripture? If everyone claims that, nobody will know the Word Of God and the truth. Everyone will claim the same authority for their interpretations and who is right?

Of course, the only one who is perfectly right shall be judge over who is right.. and apart from the Holy Spirit, who else can say that they are never wrong? Nobody will know the word of God? What you call the Bible? Like i said earlier, the way the shepherd leads the flock will be reflected in their growth.. if you see many leaders rising up, many sucessful people being grown, many lives getting changed for the better, i'd say that the food there is good... it is a good testimony...

I hope i did not sound too harsh or curt or condescending.. If i did i apologize... looking forward to your comments...

Happyinfo2 SG

First of all, I do not represent NCC in any capacity.. I am simply a student who attends NCC.. All posts here are from my own personal opinion...

You missed the point....someone said that there is this rumour and you said it is not true....yet you really do not know if it is true or unture......the point is, don't say it is not true when you really don't know. A rumour is just that....a rumour.

noahnoah SG

To me,

I dun trust any churches now

because all just con money one

Once bitten

Twice Shy!

Happyinfo2 SG

Matthew 25 .....................

The critial point in realtion to what I said in MT 25 is really that fact that Jesus said that if you show love to one of your brothers and sisters, you have shown love to God.

"Whoever fails to love does not know God, because God is love." (1Jn 4:8)

I like to quote Paul when he sum it up as that his teaching is all about faith, hope and love and nothing greater than love.

All these missions and visit to homes etc....and giving money are good. The point I want to bring to your attention is such acts are adhoc (although giving money can be on a long term basis - I agreed) basis....and secular organisations and other faith are also doing so....

Where can you visit if no one start, raise funds and run such places in the first place? How about others who are still out there and have no found help? I know many Churches with ministries reaching out within their neighbouhood to seek out those in need and provide them assistance. These are run by church volunteers....i.e. no $$$.

Is it not Jesus's teaching (backed by all his actions) that he is reaching to the poor and needy and helping them?

Did he not ask in the last judgement if we have feed Him when he is hungry? Clothed Him when He is naked, visit Him when He is in prison etc?

Or did he tell us to collecct money and start investing to make more money......make more money for what? To donate a token 10% and mostly more and keep 90% (mostly less) for ourselves?

So the question what is God's will is best answered by yourself. What do you think He want His followers to do? I think He spelt it out clearly in His 2 commandments for His followers.

And His true disciples are those who hear His words and act on it and to live their lives as true Christians and be a light to the world and messengers of Christ. All Christians are told to spread the Gospel and that is to spread God's Love and Charity to His people.

Happyinfo2 SG

Is it a fact that there is a capped of 30 years? I know many Churches have existed longer than that.......

And you don;t have to tell me one north is not a church.....I knew it from the begining.

Happyinfo2 SG

Do you mind sharing how (the criteria) board decide on the renumeration?

Happyinfo2 SG

A "church" setting up a commercial company to make money using funds raised from the church? And there is only 1 shareholder - the "church"? Sounds "scammy" to me....what relationshiop doe it have to what Jesus said when He cleared out everyone telling them that the temple is for doing His Father's business only?

And in your words then, I suppose one north is really for the purpose of making money and spreading gospel take a back-seat.

Happyinfo2 SG

Of course, the only one who is perfectly right shall be judge over who is right.. and apart from the Holy Spirit, who else can say that they are never wrong? Nobody will know the word of God? What you call the Bible? Like i said earlier, the way the shepherd leads the flock will be reflected in their growth.. if you see many leaders rising up, many sucessful people being grown, many lives getting changed for the better, i'd say that the food there is good... it is a good testimony...

I hope i did not sound too harsh or curt or condescending.. If i did i apologize... looking forward to your comments...

You made a strong implcations saying that "If any other pastor preaches the unadulterated Gospel, I too will support him.." which can be seens as saying churches other than ncc are preaching "adultered Gospel".

Yet, there is no way you can prove your claim that ncc is preaching "unadulterated Gospel".....

The word of God never changes and His commandent remains. It is people whose interpretation corrupt the bible. The bible is really about God's love for us and how we should spread the love.....not some complicated doctrines etc...

Those that preach (imo) "unadulterated Gospel" are those that not just preach about God's love but also take actions to follow His commandments to spread the love and reach out to those in need.

Such actions are only possible when guided by the Holy Spirits and with Christ living in oneself.

If going by what you said above to judge a church, ncc is far too small compared with the main streams churches and far leeser success stories to tell. Many other faith have equally outstanding following and success.....

Happyinfo2 SG

Now, let me try to answer you from the bottom up.. i think its gonna be a really long post...

The pastors salaries are decided by the board of renumeration and through specific offerings.. everything is taxed and documented..

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" -Hebrews 10:9

Now, i want to address this question :

^"4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, ⁵"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages."

What was Jesus answer? in Verse 7: ⁷"Leave her alone." Likewise I say to those critics, Leave us alone..

Jesus did teach on tithing... I am sure everyone has read Luke 15.. I hope none has thought that it is all about the same thing.. There is no insignificant detail in the Bible..

The last one we all know the famous prodigal son, The Father, finding the lost son...

So Jesus did in fact teach about tithing.. in fact, he taught more on money than on prayer.. 16 out of Christ's 38 parables deal with money...

God says that light was created before the Sun. So that means if i nuke the sun into dust, there would still be light.. Anyone can prove it? No? Then are you calling God a liar?

I hope i did not sound too harsh or curt or condescending.. If i did i apologize... looking forward to your comments...

I have no wish to go intyo a debate with you on bible verses especailly those with regards to tithes. There are already threads started on that and too many things have been said. So no point repeating.

I know you are young and perhaps, you should keep an open mind and read around....other denominations teaching, those links I gave you earlier as well as other blogs by priests, pastors and Christians like yourself.

Majority of the mainstream chruches do not teach tithing (and no tithing does not mean no giving) and certainly do not do so like the mega churches do. Jesus has never said we must tithe but give what we can afford like the old lady. And these churches (depite not teaching tithing) has survived much longer and continue to prosper and turning out many successful people.

Hope you do keep an open mind and search for the truth about Christ's teaching.

Happyinfo2 SG

Hmmm common sense indeed. Imagine if you write a book on dog training and the book store decide it is best to put them in the IT section?

Why would a book written by a "famous pastor" about "his faith" not be found in religious books section (those books store that you have not been to) ?

SPDCP SG

Thanks for a speedy reply haha.. This time i think I'll answer from the top down...

First of all, I do not represent NCC in any capacity.. I am simply a student who attends NCC.. All posts here are from my own personal opinion...

Eh, that was actually a disclaimer i decided to put infront before i got started.. not related to the topic at all.. i didnt want people to go around thinking that a staff of NCC said "this and this", when in reality all errors are mine...

Now,... LETS BEGIN! =D

The critial point in realtion to what I said in MT 25 is really that fact that Jesus said that if you show love to one of your brothers and sisters, you have shown love to God.

"Whoever fails to love does not know God, because God is love." (1Jn 4:8)

I like to quote Paul when he sum it up as that his teaching is all about faith, hope and love and nothing greater than love.

Is it not Jesus's teaching (backed by all his actions) that he is reaching to the poor and needy and helping them?

Did he not ask in the last judgement if we have feed Him when he is hungry? Clothed Him when He is naked, visit Him when He is in prison etc?

Now, I agree with you wholly.. Its just that, like i said before, we are doing those things.. We always have been doing those things and we have no plans to stop. I applaud ministers who are able to reach out without the use of money, most of our reaching out also does not involve too much money if possible.. But its times when you want to reach out, but have no money to do it..

For example,Ms XXX needs an urgent surgery... what good will sending volunteers who can only watch and have no ability to help?

Ms XXX: Help me!

Volunteer: We love you!

Ms XXX : help me!!

Volunteer: God Loves you!

Ms XXX: just go home... you cant do anything..

To provide aid to other countries.. you definitely need money to send the supplies overseas.. you need to take caution of corrupt officials.. you need to bypass certain laws in order to send aid to some minorities.. especially ones that the governement dont like...

Is it not Jesus's teaching (backed by all his actions) that he is reaching to the poor and needy and helping them?

Did he not ask in the last judgement if we have feed Him when he is hungry? Clothed Him when He is naked, visit Him when He is in prison etc?

Like i mentioned, you need money to buy food and clothing.. Look, i understand that you are for reaching out, so am I, therefore we are on the same page =) Different groups have different methods, some controvesial, some traditional.. what matters is help is going out to those who need it..

Or did he tell us to collecct money and start investing to make more money......make more money for what?

He did teach both... we cannot take one and ignore the other.. I have already elaborated on how He taught on the subject...

Is it a fact that there is a capped of 30 years? I know many Churches have existed longer than that.......

And in your words then, I suppose one north is really for the purpose of making money and spreading gospel take a back-seat.

The people Jesus cleared out were using the temple and making money for themselves.. NCC is making money for the church... NONE of the members including Ps Prince gets a cut from the profits...

One North is not for spreading the Gospel.. NCC is... it happens that NCC is housed in One North.. simple as that.. its as good as saying, Plaza Sing is not for musical education, but the Yamaha inside Plaza Sing is... Am i right?

Nope... i am not saying that NCC is the only one.. if it appears that way, I apologize and retract that statement.. there are many many good good churches around who preach the Love of Christ, for example, Ps Judah Smith from Seattle,WA, Brian Houston from Hillsongs, Rev Col. Stringer, and many many others that cannot be named cos there are too many... the people i know may differ completely from the people you know..

Have you ever wondered, why newspapers report that Bill Gates donating $100k to africa, yet no one makes any hoo ha about a man donating $200 out of his $400 account balance to Mendaki...

If we looked at percentages, Bill Gates donated around 0.000000163% of his wealth..

thats all so far... looking forward to your comments! =)

Happyinfo2 SG

...............................................

You still did not get my point....i.e. don't say it is not true when in fact you don't even know......nothing to do with disclaimer etc...that's one of the 2 reasons I repsond.

Second reason is about ""unadulterated Gospel" which you retracted but the fact remained that you have no way to know which is ""unadulterated Gospel" and ncc might just be the "adulterated" one - who knows......

But as you agreed with my views on which is "unadulterated Gospel" and claimed that ncc is doing so, I am happy. I am sure that ncc preached that but do they do it? That's where my doubts lies....

Happyinfo2 SG

For example,Ms XXX needs an urgent surgery... what good will sending volunteers who can only watch and have no ability to help?

Ms XXX: Help me!

Volunteer: We love you!

Ms XXX : help me!!

Volunteer: God Loves you!

Ms XXX: just go home... you cant do anything..

He did teach both... we cannot take one and ignore the other.. I have already elaborated on how He taught on the subject...

Actually, I failed to see what has been done ......cause what is done is bare minimal imo as I mentioned, many others do that.

I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them....

For Ms XXX in your example, if people from my Church knows about it, she will have a surgery regardless if she has money cause there are hospitals we run that we can help. There are funds we set aside to help such people and we can always raise funds within the Church to help her.....

The good of sending volunteer is to seek out such people and provide the necessary help that we can NOT WAIT FOR HER TO COME ........if we can't, we can still direct them to place which can help them...if there's a will, there's a way.

And no, we don't tell Ms XXX that God loves her......we proved it to her by what we do for her.

If Ms XXX end up with ncc, then die liao........she will be asked, you got money to pay tithe? If got, pay and wait for return.....if not, sorry, we cannot help cause need to use our money to make more money.....so the church grow richer and richer (but not the pastor hor...) and let the money rot like what Jesus said in MT6:19 "where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal"

Is that what you intend to tell me when you say what's the point of sending volunteer?

Of course money is needed and since when did I said it was not?

I know you are trying to tell me that ncc do help....I never said that they do not.

It is what the church does wholeheartedly that matters and not say "see we got do what!!".....

The point is, the focus of the Church should be soley to preach and do what Jesus teaches us as you have agreed - Love and Charity. Not making money.....

So many churches do not set up company to make money (because that's not the role of a church) and no teaching of tithes....yet they continue to exist, prosper and are able to build schools, shelters, home, hospice and run them for many years....

That's God's grace and providence cause they do God's will of spreading love and charity.

Only worry about survival when you don't ahve faith in God's promise like what Jesus said in MT6:19-34.

And sorry, Jesus do not teach both - certainly never asking His church and followers to colelcct tithes and invest to make more money....and more money for what?

Like I said earlier, no point in debating what the verses means as all warp version of preaching is "supported by the bible" because of twisted interpretation. This again lead me to ask, if you are sick, will you go to a qualified and trained doctor? For me personally, I will not put my eteranl life issue at stake by following untrained pastors....just my personal opinion.

Happyinfo2 SG

You keep mentioning there is a cap but are you sure? Cause now you put in another citeria of size....

Many other churches have a much bigger congregation that ncc and how you think they cope with that?

I don't think that there is a need for a place to house everyone at 1 go.....service can be held at different time slots.....

Having multiple building means reaching out to people of different areas, making it easier for people to attend services, having a building in an areas to cater to people living in that vicinity....administering help to the needy and spreading God's love at the same time.....it is not that bad an idea...

Yes, then the church will be poorer perhaps, but so what?

Important thing is God's will is not seen to be done but id done because it is in everyone's heart to reach out and help.

Who cares how long more the world will last? Who even care how long more we are going to live on this earth? But when we are here and since we professed to eb followers of Christ, we shall do His will to our best ability.

Happyinfo2 SG

I think nobody outside the board knows.....why? Think....

noahnoah SG

Pastor must drive big car?

Pastor wife must own LV?

Pastor must wear Boss?

Pastor must stay in orchard road?

Happyinfo2 SG

The people Jesus cleared out were using the temple and making money for themselves.. NCC is making money for the church... NONE of the members including Ps Prince gets a cut from the profits...

You missed the point again.....He clearly said that the place is to do His Father's business only......

Secondly, why would the church (already so rich) need to make more money....and when is it going to be enough since you cannot allow to get complacen? Smell like greed here.......

One north is not a church but used as a place for worship but owned by a company whose shareholder is a church. Why? Like I said sound scammy....

Plaza Singapoura is not for music education and they never raised funds to build it calling it a "music school building fund" or something like that....

And the fact that ncc is still small (as you said) means maybe, they are not really preaching "unadulterated Gospel" ? (I am just using your yardstick to measure)

SPDCP SG

Actually, I failed to see what has been done ......cause what is done is bare minimal imo as I mentioned, many others do that.

I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them....

Still, since it IS being done, you cant say that we dont do what we preach... And just because you dont hear of it, doesnt mean it isnt done...

the reason we dont directly build a shelter or a home is because there are already many such institutions in place... All we need to do is channel resources to those existing charities... Like the BB Sharity Gift Box Donations Drive, the myanmar relief fund, the tsunami and earthquake funds, etc etc...

Thats what we are doing! one of the differences is that since there ARE hospitals already in operation and are adequately equipped for the job, we just provide the financial aid..

We are in modern times... all it takes is a simple phone call and consider it done..

If they are truly in need of aid, they wont fear coming to the church for help because we have given testimonies of people receiving aid...

f Ms XXX end up with ncc, then die liao........she will be asked, you got money to pay tithe? If got, pay and wait for return.....if not, sorry, we cannot help cause need to use our money to make more money...

That is a terrible lie, dont ever believe it if someone tells you that... We have always said, only tithe if you have a revelation.. no revelation, dont tithe.. If this is not your church, dont tithe to us... if you are not employed, dont tithe... if you dont want to tithe, dont tithe..

we do NOT check individual tithing records apart from several occasions,since it is between you and God... those special occasions are 1) you are being considered for leadership, we have no desire for leaders who are God-robbers.. and 2) if you are to be given voting privileges since if your gonna help in making a major decision, some indication that you are a regular member is required...

If you dont want to be in the church records, a simple letter will suffice, if not, then drop in the envelope without your i/c number..

and let the money rot like what Jesus said in MT6:19 "where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal"

Again, let us look at the verse in its context... the verses that follow are: ²⁰ Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. ²¹ Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be.

Now, our heart is for the people, and for the things of God. Otherwise we would not be preaching Faith, Hope and Love week after week... In any case, this verse was more a personal instruction. If a man is willing to honor God with his tithe, then money does not have a hold on him, and his heart is for God. A man who keeps every cent for himself is evidently storing up treasure for himself..

Is that what you intend to tell me when you say what's the point of sending volunteer?

Of course money is needed and since when did I said it was not?

I know you are trying to tell me that ncc do help....I never said that they do not. It is what the church does wholeheartedly that matters and not say "see we got do what!!"

Exactly... the problem is, sometimes, we have instances of : "I have not heard or know that ncc is providing shelters, homes or anything to help those who need them...."

We have never publicly announced to the world what we are doing for others, everything is announced to the church members only during services....

That's God's grace and providence cause they do God's will of spreading love and charity.

Only worry about survival when you don't have faith in God's promise like what Jesus said in MT6:19-34.

can you list a few examples? Google doesnt turn up anything... lol..

if you are sick, will you go to a qualified and trained doctor? For me personally, I will not put my eternal life issue at stake by following untrained pastors....just my personal opinion.

Neither will I... However, ever since I have followed this pastor( i'm not saying he's the only good one... there are many good ones like i said..) I have experienced a change in my life for the better. There are results to show. I am not boasting or putting a feather on my cap, but if i were to compare my non christian days with who i am now, I'd say God is doing a wonderful job through Ps Prince...still doing, not complete yet haha.. i still have some areas that need polishing...

You keep mentioning there is a cap but are you sure? Cause now you put in another citeria of size....

Many other churches have a much bigger congregation than ncc and how you think they cope with that?

Er... NCC is the 2nd largest in SG...only CHC is bigger.. everyone else is at least half or less.. so their problems are on a different scale, also they have more viable options..

don't think that there is a need for a place to house everyone at 1 go.....service can be held at different time slots.....

there is no feasible solution available to house everyone... currently even with Singapore Indoor Stadium, we had to turn away 200 people due to space shortage at the last Combined Christmas Service...

We now have 4 services while occupying Rock Audi, Gallery West, 2 Overflow rooms...

So it is definite that we will still have multiple services even after moving to [email protected] we have a current attendance of 20000++... I assure you, there is a need..

I think nobody outside the board knows.....why? Think...

For exactly the same reasons Takashimaya does not let other people know their pay systems.. it is simply good/common practice.. However, it is perfectly fine to email the church to request a look at how they make such decisions.. Go ahead and let me know what they say...

Gonna take a short break for now, lets look at this one from noahnoah :

Pastor must drive big car?

Pastor wife must own LV?

Pastor must wear Boss?

Pastor must stay in orchard road?

Correct me if i'm mistaken, but i think this is a case of sour grapes.. Same way, i fire back the question at you :

Pastor must walk/take bus everywhere?

Pastor wife must not own LV?

Pastor must wear not Boss?

Pastor must not stay in orchard road or maybe, cannot even own house?

For the record, Ps Prince stays in the west zone.. not in Orchard..

Now, now that has been settled with, lets continue:

He clearly said that the place is to do His Father's business only......

Is not the Father's business the church? If not, then why would He send Jesus to us?

Secondly, why would the church (already so rich) need to make more money....and when is it going to be enough since you cannot allow to get complacen? Smell like greed here......

We dont NEED to make more money, rather, we just want to be good stewards of it... and investing it is the proper duty of a steward, as mentioned in Jesus's Parable of the talents of gold... It has already exceeded our expectations many times over... we passed the enough mark long ago... now, we are doing it to see God's promises come true, the ones where He says " Test me now in this, and see if I will not bless you so much as there will not be enough room to hold it!" ... as a testimony to others

One north is not a church but used as a place for worship but owned by a company whose shareholder is a church. Why? Like I said sound scamm

One north is not solely used for worship.. In fact, Rock Productions rents out the Audi to NCC, and on days where NCC is not using it, it is free for everyone else..

On a personal opinion, i think the thing we did was to use a loophole in the law to allow us to get a building of our own that meets our need..

NCC has to pay Rock for using the Audi. Rock must pay taxes on rent received. Although Rock is owned by NCC, Rock cannot just transfer the money back to NCC as and when it feels like, since they are still seperate entities...

I think somewhere along the line you have thought i'm missing the point again but i'm just expaining the way these things work.. if you know more than me, teach me.. Although business law is really one of the hardest to explain... trying not to get confused myself..

Plaza Singapoura is not for music education and they never raised funds to build it calling it a "music school building fund" or something like that....

We have also repeated time and again that One North is not a place of worship.. it is a civic and cultural zone with retail options.. and we do not raise funds by claiming what it is not.. the people just gave even when we announced the truth publicly...

And the fact that ncc is still small (as you said) means maybe, they are not really preaching "unadulterated Gospel" ? (I am just using your yardstick to measure)

We may still be small, but we will not remain small.. like i said, we are still growing.. and we will grow..

I have enjoyed this extensive discussion very much... the interesting posts here have given me a great opportunity to crack open my bible and read where i normally might have missed.. thanks alots... haha.. But i think we got alot of points covered already to make a rather thick FAQ... I do intend to wrap it up in the next 3 to 4 posts if possible.. I've said my hearts content and have been blessed.

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