religious harmony

last SG · 2008-05-31T05:15:21+00:00

lol, i got flamed in the sim thread also hahaha. i realise that you can't be a flamer and be a christian la. if you want to win, you can't pull punches.but i...

dumbdumb! SG

sad to say its true lor..so called visions are nothing but lies of the wicked one. after the wicked one kena hurled down,he really successful in drawing even more people to his side. how he managed to make people believe he dont exist and how he mae people believe his doctrines are holy...power sia he..

the bible tells us to test each spirit.

satan cannot tell the truth, because there is no truth in him. so ask him about the truth, he will lie about it.

domonkassyu SG

1stly, tats y he power at lying. and he damn intelligent though warped. he can come up with so many theories,practices,doctrines to warp just 1 truth..now thats thinking out of the box..

2ndly, trinity wise, it was 1st told, thats y it was asked. ever since RC started preaching it, more people have to ask to understand it mahz. cuz they wan to know God and trust enough that RC is trustworthy enough to teach the right way. all the way till me lor.they dun teach then i wont ask lor. they teach then i ask to better understand it mahz.

btw, isnt it much much more simpler to understand there is but 1 God. and he dont exist in 3 states? unity in purpose i can readily accept. unity in a God head..explain more to me bah. the way i see reponse to my qn of trinity, reminds me of the hindu faith. they oso 1 god. but manifest himself into thousands of forms to let his believers to pray to a particular aspect easily.

dumbdumb! SG

1stly, tats y he power at lying. and he damn intelligent though warped. he can come up with so many theories,practices,doctrines to warp just 1 truth..now thats thinking out of the box..

then u aren't teaching the truth that Jesus is God. lol. u see.. it's very hard to balance.. you either want to swing to either extremes, and both sides are wrong.

if you claim that there are 3 seperate gods, you have the triad.

if you claim that there is only one God, and He cannot appear in 3 persons, then you're saying Jesus isn't God, neither is the Holy Spirit, because there is already God the Father.

it's just 2 different extremes =)

and they are both wrong?

domonkassyu SG

then u aren't teaching the truth that Jesus is God. lol. u see.. it's very hard to balance.. you either want to swing to either extremes, and both sides are wrong.

if you claim that there are 3 seperate gods, you have the triad.

if you claim that there is only one God, and He cannot appear in 3 persons, then you're saying Jesus isn't God, neither is the Holy Spirit, because there is already God the Father.

it's just 2 different extremes =)

and they are both wrong?

ehz..iaint teaching if thats what u meant =p nor do i claim JC is God is truth.

so 3 seperate gods are called triad and 3 gods in 1 is called a trinity. what do you call just 1 God in himself? judaism?

i claim there is only one God for the bible said so. He appear in more than 3 persons in purpose. and yes, im saying neither JC nor HS is God too. and we cant be sure whos wrong now...

dumbdumb! SG

ehz..iaint teaching if thats what u meant =p nor do i claim JC is God is truth.

so 3 seperate gods are called triad and 3 gods in 1 is called a trinity. what do you call just 1 God in himself? judaism?

i claim there is only one God for the bible said so. He appear in more than 3 persons in purpose. and yes, im saying neither JC nor HS is God too. and we cant be sure whos wrong now...

if the bible says Jesus is God, then you say he isn't.. then who's telling the truth?

and if he isn't God, how can he die for the sins of man? since he'll just be man, and equally sinful?

domonkassyu SG

if the bible says Jesus is God, then you say he isn't.. then who's telling the truth?

and if he isn't God, how can he die for the sins of man? since he'll just be man, and equally sinful?

now this is easy..IF the bible says JC is God and i say hes not..obviously i lied or dun understand. lucky for me, its just an IF.

how he died fo sins of man is simple.how did sin 1st step in?? satan lied through snakey."snakey" lied to eve(perfect).eve(perfect) told adam(perfect) about it.both(perfect) took a bite.no longer perfect and sin comes with good ol death. in bible contxt,man wears the pants. meaning it took 1 perfect man to bring sin in. think of adam standing in one end of a scale. what does it take to balance the scale? obviously is another perfect man right?

nw,mary is just the dispenser.God transfered the prehuman JC into her,thus he does not inherit any sin, making him the 3rd perfect human to have appeared on earth. thus he is without inherited sin. nor does he later on in live sin against God for he is the only one who has been with God the longest period of time.

by the time he died, he is still sinless, now surely that balance the scale of perfection that adam gave up.

24/7 SG

now this is easy..IF the bible says JC is God and i say hes not..obviously i lied or dun understand. lucky for me, its just an IF.

by the time he died, he is still sinless, now surely that balance the scale of perfection that adam gave up.

Hullo,

I'll try to use ur examples.

According to ur scale, 1 perfect man on one end, 1 perfect man on the other. Then are all the sins of the world redeemed? Can one created being save another created being? If Jesus was that perfect man, created nonetheless, he can only redeem the sins of another man at best.

THe sins of the world, is something that only something on a God-scale can do. Or someone with the fullness / nature of God. Jesus was begotten, not made. Man was made (created), as was angels, in God's image (not bestowed with His nature). In this case, the analogy of the father and son (family) playing with clay makes sense. We're that clay.

Hence we (Christians) affirm they're of ONE substance / essence. 3 of 1, not 1 of 3. Pls don't fret, we're still monotheistic.

DA Carson says this of the Trinity, 1 + 1 + 1 =3. But infinity + infinity + infinity = ??

24/7 SG

maybe u forgotten God has no begining. so there is no logic in God begets God. that would make the begotten God a lesser god. and not almighty. john 3:16 makes no explict notion that JC is God either. having an identical nature do not = to being the same person. just like twins or close friends who have identical nature. does that makes them the same and 1 person? also, your last statement..remember God has no equal..

You wouldnt know the process of how God begets God, would you? We're mere creations, and some of these things are hidden mysteries to us, till God reveals Himself. This is something common in all faiths. We follow what He chooses to tell us through His Word.

God has no beginning, Genesis starts with God already in the picture and how He began the work of creation. John starts with similar picture but except he says The Word was also there with God from the beginning. This suggests the preexistence (before the beginning of human-time) of Jesus.

domonkassyu SG

Hullo,

I'll try to use ur examples.

Hence we (Christians) affirm they're of ONE substance / essence. 3 of 1, not 1 of 3. Pls don't fret, we're still monotheistic.

DA Carson says this of the Trinity, 1 + 1 + 1 =3. But infinity + infinity + infinity = ??

my "scale' was the point that it took 1 perfect man to bring sin into the world. to redeem that, it takes another perfect man to counter it. y else would JC being called the last adam? now since God is only one, it would normally be impossible to beget anything else. therefore,he has to create the prehuman JC. fast forward that to mary's time, God then transfered JC down to earth. thus "creating" the human JC. that JC is also charged with the authority to erase man's sin. surely when God says you can do this and that means you can do it right?

as for the clay thingy, yes we are,as are all other but God.

DA Carson analogy of 1+1+1=3 but 00+00+00=00 is valid.undisputed. however, infinity also meant no end or beginning. JC has a beginning not from mary but begotten from God. thus he is no longer infinite. HS wiese, heck, it doesnt even have tat much media coverage in the bible as the father and son. you tell people abt lky and lhl people know. u tell people about gct, they say goh who again? in fact HS wasnt even being refered to as a he or she, not tat it really matters, but obviously like i said b4, 1 supreme, 1 lesser and 1 xtra lor.

24/7 SG

as for the clay thingy, yes we are,as are all other but God.

Does infinity have any meaning with God?

Does God see an end or beginning to infinity (which by the way, is from Man's perspective)?

Can finite man comprehend infinity?

I'm not here to dispute whether Jesus has a beginning or not, my argument is that the bible reveals the fullness of God in Jesus. That God's nature is in Him. Doesnt matter if terms like Trinity are not found within the bible. Terms we use to describe God's nature (omniscent, omnipresent) are not inside as well. Do we not use them? These are concepts that we glean from His Word. (RCs didnt coin the word, the early church fathers did. And they're certainly not RC. Probably RCs came about 5th or 6th century, but that's another story)

As i said, 1 perfect man (created) to bring sin in. 1 perfect man (created) to bring it away, only redeems the sin of 1. Not the world.

now since God is only one, it would normally be impossible to beget anything else.

From man's POV, impossible. Neither do we say there are three. But if God wills it, why not? As you said,

surely when God says you can do this and that means you can do it right?

If He chooses to beget His Son, and reveals it as such, with indication of the Father-Son relationship, who are we to determine that's not possible?

rokkie SG

every god is exclusive under the guidiance of that,harmony seems quite rare.

dumbdumb! SG

god, i just woke up!

so sleepy!! *slap slap slap*

rokkie SG

go sleep,alright,maybe god can sent u a dream.lol

Miracles&Prophecies SG

.....do you not see that they are the sons of devil?

as for your vision of God, you are not the only one i heard nor will you be the last i guess..

but also refer back to the bible that since completing revelation, no mortal man will have such visions.

which is another point why so many people claim to see this and that vision..also remember that satan in order to deceive WILL and OFTEN turn himself into an angel of light. the very same light that mere mortals will regard as the LIGHT of God.

Yes I'm sure not the only living man who had been given the vision as God is the living God and God of the living too. I don't think the bible ever mentioned that no mortal men would be given vision of God or Jesus. Besides I know what I saw or what I experienced was not my own fantasy.

Yes the devil would deceive men but get some sense and get real...the devil would not repeat would never try to imitate God Himself. Besides God gave me a surge of total love for Jesus right before I was given(I asked to see the face of Jesus) the vision of Jesus. That love was real and I would never think that the devil able to give me such great love for Jesus. Don't be paranoid as to think everything miraculous that happens is from the devil. Again it was personal so I knew what I saw and what Ifelt while other people may be suspicious because they don't know.

I too once thought Jesus was lesser than the Father so I asked to see Jesus face and instead got a glimpse of His glory that hurted my eyeballs literally in the end as I tried too hard/forced myself to penetrate the light that was coming from His face.

Yes many people claim to see that vision or this vision I would not trust them so easily too unless I know what kind of person he/she is. People lie all the time so don't take people who claim that they've been given this vision or that vision easily.

I too for several years have been 'allowed' sometimes though not very often to feel what other people feel literally. And sometimes but quite rare to know what would happen ahead of time. I approach these with caution as the trick of the devil is real. My take is as long as it doesn't hurt my faith and my salvation and gives me strength and add to my faith I do not see them the work of the devil. Of course this too is personal and I don't force nor I'm trying to make anyone to believe me. I'm simply telling you what it is from my own experience.

domonkassyu SG

Does infinity have any meaning with God?

Does God see an end or beginning to infinity (which by the way, is from Man's perspective)?

Can finite man comprehend infinity?

As i said, 1 perfect man (created) to bring sin in. 1 perfect man (created) to bring it away, only redeems the sin of 1. Not the world.

From man's POV, impossible. Neither do we say there are three. But if God wills it, why not? As you said,

If He chooses to beget His Son, and reveals it as such, with indication of the Father-Son relationship, who are we to determine that's not possible?

the fullness of God through JC isnt even justified much less in him. however, that does not mean i belittle JC. JC no doubt is the only one who can imitate God as well as none other can due to they being the closest.

as for terms describing God's nature might not be in the bible word for word, but the context do. however in terms of trinity. everything immeidately comes to a conflict and blur.

as u said 1 man brough sin in and 1 man bring sin out. the point being refused here is that 1 man gave the whole world sins. so its fair to say 1 man bring all tat sins away. tat there shall be no more sins thereafter( dont really mean literally disappear but terms and conditions apply).

lastly, the way u phrase it for the God willing it part, it sounds like the lame qn of can god create a stone so heavy tat he cant lift it.

and he did begets the son and declared their r/s. clear as anything can be when JC was baptised by john.

24/7 SG

the fullness of God through JC isnt even justified much less in him.

Col 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

as u said 1 man brough sin in and 1 man bring sin out. the point being refused here is that 1 man gave the whole world sins. so its fair to say 1 man bring all tat sins away.

the operational word is in "created". Can a created being redeem another created being? Can an angel redeem your sins?

lastly, the way u phrase it for the God willing it part, it sounds like the lame qn of can god create a stone so heavy tat he cant lift it.

merely quoting what you said.

I've heard your example before and people use it to argue against the omnipotence of God, but we know God doesnt defy logic. Is the Trinity beyond logic? Is it really so hard to understand?

dumbdumb! SG

in the end it all boils down to whether it's just plain ti-ki-ness or not. =x haha

you can't ignore this phrase "The Word is God" when it's.. like, right there?

Icemoon SG

Icemoon:

You've answered yourself and those who ask why Jesus doesnt come out right and declare, "Hey world! I'm God, come get me!"

If he doesnt grab the bull by the horns, im sure you'll know why. To people, this verse and others clearly indicate that He's claiming equality to God.

Did people worship Him in the book of John? Certainly, Icemoon! But im sure you'll say thats not evidence of His deity.

Did he correct Thomas when he exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" Nope, he didnt. You know how Jews are not supposed to take the name of God in vain, so to say Thomas exclaimed that in surprise is groundless. Jesus went on to bless him.

Your statements are sweeping. And your argument is pretty much recycled. :P

For example, you mentioned about Thomas invoking the name of God. But are we sure Thomas is invoking the name of God whom we know as Hashem? If you check the Greek, the words are Kyrios and Theos. None of them is a one to one mapping for Hashem!

The above illustrates just one problem of Hebrew-Greek-English translation.

Interesting you quoted John 9. I wonder have you checked Strongs or done your homework before quoting it?

The Greek word for 'worship' in John 9 is proskuneo. Before we continue, do you want to bet your last cent that 'worship' in the NT is always proskuneo? Never mind the context even.

If you are afraid to bet your last cent, smart ass. At least you aren't thinking like a simpleton!

Because there is another Greek word for 'worship', called latreuo. Heh.

Let me quote from Strongs:

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=3000

3000. latreuo lat-ryoo'-o from latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render religious homage:--serve, do the service, worship(-per).

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=4352

4352. proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship.

The Lexicon listings are quite long, so I leave you to read yourself:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4352&t=KJV&page=1
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3000&t=KJV

Suffice to say, when worship is used in reference to Jesus, latreuo is never used! When there is a clear reference to Hashem, latreuo is used. See the pattern?

I shall not say much. Read, discern and be skeptical. :P

Icemoon SG

in the end it all boils down to whether it's just plain ti-ki-ness or not. =x haha

you can't ignore this phrase "The Word is God" when it's.. like, right there?

Neither should you ignore what's originally written in the Greek.

The word is 'theos' .. and it means many other things beside Hashem.

Icemoon SG

Not sure of your debate with 24/7, but I just want to comment:

When Snakey lied to Eve, was Eve perfect then? If she was perfect, why did she take the bite?

Just something to ponder.

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