religious harmony

last SG · 2008-05-31T05:15:21+00:00

lol, i got flamed in the sim thread also hahaha. i realise that you can't be a flamer and be a christian la. if you want to win, you can't pull punches.but i...

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Not sure of your debate with 24/7, but I just want to comment:

When Snakey lied to Eve, was Eve perfect then? If she was perfect, why did she take the bite?

Just something to ponder.

They were both indeed perfect(sharing the image of God). Eve took the bite not out of imperfection but out of disobedient. Remember free will? So it was more like rebellion than imperfection. She thought she knew better. Sounds familiar with even today's people?

domonkassyu SG

Col 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

the operational word is in "created". Can a created being redeem another created being? Can an angel redeem your sins?

merely quoting what you said.

I've heard your example before and people use it to argue against the omnipotence of God, but we know God doesnt defy logic. Is the Trinity beyond logic? Is it really so hard to understand?

im pretty sure i never saw the word godhead in normal bible before? can angels redeem sins for us..i help u ask God should i see him ya. yes.trinity is beyond logic. so far im being told it is the esscene of God but never was really explained further. ANALogies like time and 3 states of water were given but they are still very different things that do not equal to each other. as for the rest, got people help me explain liaoz..so there goes.

domonkassyu SG

in the end it all boils down to whether it's just plain ti-ki-ness or not. =x haha

you can't ignore this phrase "The Word is God" when it's.. like, right there?

ehz..can say so bah..it is my ti ki ness to not believe in trinity and its also your ti ki ness to hold on to it ya? so same lor..hows your revision?

God and god is different.

domonkassyu SG

Not sure of your debate with 24/7, but I just want to comment:

When Snakey lied to Eve, was Eve perfect then? If she was perfect, why did she take the bite?

Just something to ponder.

yep..like what M&P states, shes a perfect woman then. only when she decided to listen to the "snake" did she becomes sinful(falling short of God's standard).

Icemoon SG

yep..like what M&P states, shes a perfect woman then. only when she decided to listen to the "snake" did she becomes sinful(falling short of God's standard).

Wait a minute.

Did the sin occur before or after the bite?

Icemoon SG

Btw, the bible did not use perfect, it uses good. :P

Furthermore, it can be argued we still have the image of God in us now. So are we still "perfect"?

domonkassyu SG

actually i believe its when she has the thought to try it out thats when sin came. den when adam chose to die with her. JC did says that having the thought oso sin liaoz

domonkassyu SG

Btw, the bible did not use perfect, it uses good. :P

Furthermore, it can be argued we still have the image of God in us now. So are we still "perfect"?

if God says good sure good one. we still have God's image. but we are not perfect. imagine photocopying an original with a lousy copy machine??

Icemoon SG

actually i believe its when she has the thought to try it out thats when sin came. den when adam chose to die with her. JC did says that having the thought oso sin liaoz

Then sin will eventually come.

Anytime their thought veer away from God's standard, sin will come. Fruit or no fruit, sin will come, to them or their descendants. Just a matter of when only.

Icemoon SG

if God says good sure good one. we still have God's image. but we are not perfect. imagine photocopying an original with a lousy copy machine??

lol .. initially you agreed to M&P's perfect woman .. now you change liao?

domonkassyu SG

lol .. initially you agreed to M&P's perfect woman .. now you change liao?

nono..nv change..she was still perfect/good..but when she decided to sin..den no good/imperfect.

Icemoon SG

nono..nv change..she was still perfect/good..but when she decided to sin..den no good/imperfect.

lol .. is this another fallacy of equivocation? now perfect and good the same liao.

domonkassyu SG

when God created the perfect humans,he saw that it was good and said it was good. so in the same light, when they sinned, they became no good isnt it?

Icemoon SG

when God created the perfect humans,he saw that it was good and said it was good. so in the same light, when they sinned, they became no good isnt it?

wah leow eh .. perfect human .. sounds so much like the Gospel of Judas siah!

For it is written,

".. Let any one of you who is strong enough among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face."

They all said, "We have the strength."

But their spirits did not dare to stand before him, except for Judas Iscariot.

domonkassyu SG

so icemoon u mean there was never a perfect human before?

Miracles&Prophecies SG

Btw, the bible did not use perfect, it uses good. :P

Furthermore, it can be argued we still have the image of God in us now. So are we still "perfect"?

It's not only in appearance that we were made in the image of God but men were created to be free of sins aswell.

Guys check the Roman Catholics forum and see the Padre Pio thread. I know they have lame threads but check it(the pictures) out.

He's a saint whose body doesn't become corrupt even after 40 years. I've counted 3 saints whose body never become corrupt in the Catholic church history. There might be more.

domonkassyu SG

It's not only in appearance that we were made in the image of God but men were created to be free of sins aswell.

Guys check the Roman Catholics forum and see the Padre Pio thread. I know they have lame threads but check it(the pictures) out.

He's a saint whose body doesn't become corrupt even after 40 years. I've counted 3 saints whose body never become corrupt in the Catholic church history. There might be more.

seen such bodies before, some even have oils coming out of the body that release a sweet smell. some RC believers says the oil can be used to heal and such. but the way u put it, corrupt, do u mean rot?

rokkie SG

so icemoon u mean there was never a perfect human before?

man cannot be perfect ,i think what u said ,perfect ,meaning very very good ,but as man,full of desires.Perfect is only word match for God

domonkassyu SG

what i meant was when humans were 1st created.he and she was perfect in the sense that they will not die. they followed God's law and were happy. nor will they age nor fall sick. they uses 100% of their brian to the max potential. not careless and overlook certain stuff..basically very different from us. they had the wisdom and intelligence that we dont have. that was good in God's eyes. that was perfect human. imperfection only come when they fall short of God's standard. that is to sin. so they die,grow old n sick. basically what humans have exp for the past few dun knw how many years.

24/7 SG

Your statements are sweeping. And your argument is pretty much recycled. :P

For example, you mentioned about Thomas invoking the name of God. But are we sure Thomas is invoking the name of God whom we know as Hashem? If you check the Greek, the words are Kyrios and Theos. None of them is a one to one mapping for Hashem!

The above illustrates just one problem of Hebrew-Greek-English translation.

Interesting you quoted John 9. I wonder have you checked Strongs or done your homework before quoting it?

The Greek word for 'worship' in John 9 is proskuneo. Before we continue, do you want to bet your last cent that 'worship' in the NT is always proskuneo? Never mind the context even.

If you are afraid to bet your last cent, smart ass. At least you aren't thinking like a simpleton!

Because there is another Greek word for 'worship', called latreuo. Heh.

Let me quote from Strongs:

The Lexicon listings are quite long, so I leave you to read yourself:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4352&t=KJV&page=1
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3000&t=KJV

Suffice to say, when worship is used in reference to Jesus, latreuo is never used! When there is a clear reference to Hashem, latreuo is used. See the pattern?

I shall not say much. Read, discern and be skeptical. :P

You've not made any case.

Just because latreuo is used of God and not Jesus - whats your point?

How do you render "sacred service" to God? How do you want to differentiate between these 2 words which render "worship"?

By the way, you're wrong to say worship was never used to refer to Jesus. In Rev 22:3, Christ is latreuo along with God, referred as a singular pronoun and on the throne. Does that give u a clearer picture of the Trinity?

Rev 22:3

And there shall be (5704) no more * * curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be (5704) in it; and his servants shall serve (5692) him:

Even if u refuse to see past this,

By saying Jesus is proskuneo, have you really affirmed anything?

Let's look at how God desires to be worshipped:

John 4:23

But the hour cometh (5736), and now is (5748), when the true worshippers shall worship (5692) the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh (5719) such to worship (5723) him.

Proskeuno.

Matt 4:9-10

And saith (5719) unto him, All these things will I give (5692) thee, if thou wilt fall down (5631) and worship (5661) me. Then saith (5719) Jesus unto him, Get thee hence (5720), Satan: for it is written (5769), Thou shalt worship (5692) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve (5692).

Proskeuno and latreuo.

From your lexicons, there is a type of proskuneo that is worship reserved to God alone, and there is a type of proskuneo that can be done with men--a bowing down, a courtesy, a sign of deference and respect, a tipping-the-hat, so to speak. In other words, sometimes it's okay and sometimes it isn't. What's the difference?

There is a type of proskuneo that cannot be mistaken for mere courtesy. In Acts 10:25 Cornelius fell at Peter's feet and proskuneo ("worshipped") him. In Revelation 19:10 and 22:8 John fell at the angel's feet twice and proskuneo ("worshipped") him. Both Cornelius and John were seriously reprimanded. Why?

The reason they were reprimanded is that proskuneo is generally translated to bow down but if a person is already down, the addition of proskuneo must indicate worship. Cornelius didn't fall at Peter's feet and then bow down, he was already down. John didn't fall down at the angel's feet and then bow down, he was already down. They both fell down and worshipped. Ergo the strong words of correction: "Worship God, not me."

Matt 4:9 again, if thou wilt fall down (5631) and worship (5661) me (Satan wanted not just a polite proskeuno, but one with full worship)

Matt 2:2-11, Matt 28:9 --> all indicate falling on the feet before worshipping Jesus Christ.

And of course the other references where Jesus is proskuneoed to. Worshipped.

Grant it to you that there are times when the word proskuneo is used of Jesus and other men and it doesn't refer to worship. But the context tells us (which you told me to ignore, hmm).

We looked at the context and especially the use of the phrase "falling down and worshipping." It seems hard to escape the conclusion that Jesus is being worshipped.

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