Romans qn

last SG · 2007-04-06T00:11:28+00:00

I think paul is trying to use this concept of the law to tell us justification by faith?

Icemoon SG

Loss for an answer right? Laughing

No way you can explain why the law was given for 1300 years then Yeshua came.

breytonhartge SG

Right from the beginning of time, Hashem was with Adam, it is recorded in the Holy Scriptures that Adam had close fellowship with Hashem, no doubt Hashem would have spoken to Adam about how things were and the Commandments... going on from there, we see that Noah knew about clean and unclean animals, a sign that Noah knew the Law... and so it goes... there are many examples of the people of Hashem knowing the Law of Hashem...

Icemoon SG

you are drifting away. Laughing

I'm sure the prophets know the Law of Hashem too. Just look at Daniel. By the way, Daniel followed some commandments not found in the Torah. The Jews say this is proof of their Oral Tradition.

Actually they say Jesus also followed some commandments not mentioned in the Torah ..

breytonhartge SG

The Law was given for 1300 years... as you say for the childern of Hashem to know how to live...

Icemoon SG

i totally lost what you are trying to say. Laughing

Icemoon SG

Actually Yeshua was a poor role model for the Law of Hashem.

Because the Jewish disciples were Jewish before they knew him. And the gentile converts did not walk in the Law of Hashem.

In short, Yeshua did not motivate people to follow the Law of Hashem.

If you know church history, later on during the Inquisition, those Jews who converted to Christianity .. they abandoned the Law of Hashem.

breytonhartge SG

actually He did, He not only kept the letter but the spirit of the Law as well...

Icemoon SG

Actually sometimes what Jesus did might be abhorent to the Pharisees in those days, but they are perfectly fine with Jews today.

But he is still a poor role model. Unless you can show me the fruit of his labour (as a role model). He failed big time!

Icemoon SG

After few rounds of discussion with Brey, I realize his position is getting more and more untenable. The more he reply, the more wrong I feel he is.

Here is my argument:

As a Pharisee of Pharisee, the apostle Shaul must have known the Law of Hashem very well. If the Law is always good, why did Shaul say

Romans 7:12 (NIV)

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Why is Shaul associating death with the Law? Rolling Eyes Notice Shaul is saying the commandment is putting him to death because of sin. Later Shaul will say everybody is a slave to sin. So how leh? According to Shaul, the solution is found in Yeshua.

To sound more 'academic' .. what triggered the metamorphosis in Shaul? As one who should know the Law very well, why did he need Yeshua? The prophets before Shaul didn't need Yeshua, so why did Shaul need Yeshua? Well, at least the prophets did not KPKB that the Law is putting them to death because of sin.

Icemoon SG

Maybe I should start a topic in the style of Brey - What did Shaul know that the prophets don't? Laughing

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