How is Catholic grace different from Protestant grace?

last SG · 2007-02-14T09:55:28+00:00

On the other hand, I believe that the grace of your God is damnation. But then again, I am an atheist and irreligionist.

vince69 SG

ok, like saving grace (gift of salvation) and daily grace (the favor to go through daily living and trails) ... Smile

SingaporeMacross SG

I forgot to mention one more thing.

What is Work? We have 2 kinds.

1) A natural moral act without any grace, but that does not help him at all. This 'Work' will not save.

2) A supernatural act that is performed with the help of grace. This saves. Ultimately Grace saves though indirectly through Work.

vince69 SG

pt. 1, I agree with you.

pt. 2, I sort of disagree, always thought Grace is a gift, a favor that we are merited for. If Works is required, won't it have been more appropreiate to call it a reward rather than a gift?
(I am infering the 'Work' you mentioned here is work or good conduct done by man, be it with grace from God.)

cheers. Smile

SingaporeMacross SG

Actual grace is temporary, and once the job is done God takes it away.

vince69 SG

hmm.... God takes it away? sorry, cannot reconcil this idea that susgest that God is petty, I am more towards the idea that God gave us enough grace (living grace) to get through the situation we are in (ie. specific grace for specific situation). Like the daily provision of Mana when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, its provided fresh on a daily basis.
Smile

Icemoon SG

My question – do Catholics affirm sola gratia?

vince69 SG

what is your understanding of this term 'sola gratia'? Rolling Eyes

Icemoon SG

grace only?

SingaporeMacross SG

No.

SingaporeMacross SG

Actual grace is any intervention by God when He deems it necessary. You are correct to say that He will give us enough to get by each time we need it.

If He takes one form away, He may give us another. He takes freely and gives freely. If we need it, He will give it to us. The Lord knows what is best. The onus then, is on us to cooperate with Him.

Icemoon SG

OT a little 'cos your reply reminds me of something.

Catholics believe in synergism right? Mr. Green

SingaporeMacross SG

define synergism.

Icemoon SG

Here is a quote from the Council of Orange (attacking synergism, I suppose):

Icemoon SG

SingaporeMacross, so I guess Pelagius held the more extreme version of synergism. Laughing

SingaporeMacross SG

I think Catholic belief is somewhere between Pelagianism and Synergism defined previously. We recognise that grace is needed. Indeed, supernatural acts can only be achieved with God's help. But there is still a need for the person to perform the act.

Icemoon SG

I hope it is not semi-Pelagianism. Mr. Green

Icemoon SG

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13703a.htm

As is clear from the tenor of this writing, Vitalis was of the opinion that the beginning of faith springs from the free will of nature, and that the essence of "prevenient grace" consists in the preaching of the Christian doctrine of salvation. On the basis of such faith man, as Vitalis held, attains justification before God. This view was entirely "Semipelagian". To controvert it, Augustine pointed out that the grace preceding faith must be an interior enlightenment and strengthening, and that the preaching of the Word of God could not, unassisted, accomplish this; consequently the implanting of grace in the soul by God is necessary as a preliminary condition for the production of real faith, since otherwise the customary prayer of the Church for the grace of conversion for unbelievers would be superfluous. Augustine also introduces his view of an absolute predestination of the elect, without however especially emphasizing it, by remarking: "Cum tam multi salvi non fiant, non quia ipsi, sed quia Deus non vult" (Since so many are not saved, not because they themselves do not will it, but because God does not will it).

Ok .. I learn something new today.

Augustine taught that grace precede faith. No use preaching the gospel unless God implants grace in the soul.

Augustine taught predestination!! Mr. Green

Icemoon SG

I hope to synthesis the Catholic and Protestant position.

Catholic - grace precedes faith.

Classical Protestant - regeneration precedes faith.

Hmm .. it is safe to conclude both are the work of the Holy Spirit. Mr. Green

So the conclusion is the Holy Spirit regenerates through grace?

Icemoon SG

Holy cow!

There is actually a covenant of grace in classical protestant theology!! Shocked

Looks like the protestant position is not so shallow after all ..

The covenant of grace is that by which God's elect are attributed Christ's satisfaction by faith. An understanding of the covenant is central to understanding the history of redemption.

"This covenant being transacted betwixt Christ and God, here, here lies the first and most firm foundation of a Christian's comfort." - John Ball (1585-1640).

In the covenant of works there was no mediator: in that of grace, there is the mediator, Christ Jesus....In the covenant of works, the condition of perfect obedience was required, to be performed by man himself, who had consented to it. In that of grace, the same condition is proposed, as to be, or as already performed by a mediator. And this substitution of the person, consists the principal and essential difference of the covenants. - Herman Witsius (1636-1708 )

SingaporeMacross SG

Nah that was condemned also.

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