Sufferings

last SG · 2006-08-26T08:56:36+00:00

didn't read all the mumbo jumbo above..... Wrong question. God did not create suffering.... suffering is the consequence of disobedience. Disobedience may n...

Chin Eng SG

Lots of things did not exist in the first place. If I say to my son, if you don't do this, you will be punished for it... the punishment, while conceptualised, did not exist. It will only come into being if a certain requirement is not met.

God allowed the punishment to be the consequence, suffering is what an individual feels when punished. Theoritically speaking, one does not need to suffer when punished.

Perhaps the first queston should be: What is suffering?

davidche SG

i dont really understand.

But nvm, i believe mine you believe yours loh!

As long as there isnt anything wrong with mine...is there?

Icemoon SG

Suffering should have existed before the Adam and Eve.

Read the Covenant of Redemption - "is the agreement beyond time and within the Godhead that the Father would appoint the Son Jesus Christ to live a perfectly acceptable substitutionary life and die an undeserved death on behalf of, and as a covenantal representative for, those who would sin but would trust in Christ as their covenantal substitutionary representative." (wikipedia)

In other words, Jesus was to suffer for our sins.

davidche SG

some things exist because of the lack of another.

but we do know that for something to exist it must be created.

ben1xy SG

I actually posted a similar reply to this to someone here before. It follows the Augustine view of deprevition of goodness. However, the fact remains that God allows this suffering to happen.

which brings me to this question:
can suffering be good? if yes, then it's not evil and should therefore make it easier to come to terms with Christian doctrine.

Another question i would like to pose... is there something called needless suffering? Where suffering happens not for the better good, but juz happens abitrarily?

instead of your son's example.. people use the classic example of a parent who's kid is in ICU. They send him to the hospital against his own wishes and the son has deemed his hospital stay as suffering. but this is not the case as his parents are doing this for the betterment of his health. However, unlike God, the parent will try to explain and be around the kid... this contrast with the silence of God, which gives little consolation to sufferers.

Chin Eng SG

Yup, I allow "suffering" to continue to my sons.... right now, one of them is "suffering" because he is being thought on how he should plan his school holidays in revising his mother tongue... and boy! does he looked like he is suffering. But is it suffering?

I am not sure if there is any quotation that states that suffering is evil. If there is, I'd like to have that quotation pointed out to me. I'd rather view it as suffering may be necessary in order for us to know what is good. My current stand? Yup, suffering can be good, when there is a lesson learnt, and an objective achieved.... which obviously has nothing to do with people in poverty...

Sure there is needless suffering. I'd say that these are the suffering that people refuse to come to terms with. Say, a love one dies and those who survived the deceased continues to grief over the loss. Coming to terms with it will put an end to the suffering.... obviously there are other more severe examples which I may not be able to quote.

Silence of God or deafness of men? We need also to come to terms with that.

It all goes back to what is the definition of suffering to the individual......
Physical pain? Sickness? Depravation of certain niceties in life? Lack of the essentials? Lack of wealth?

davidche SG

yes i know,

davidche SG

so beides me and chin eng, what is your stand for creation of suffering?

ben1xy SG

i dun have a stand yet. still forming as i cannot convince myself with some of the arguements and the materials i have been reading. I will post my view when i can convince myself on a view if ever

stupidissmart SG

Ok, you example is still the Genesis account. Personally, I am not one of those who subscribe to the "literal" account of Genesis but as an analogical approach(yup, some of my Christian brethen may flame me for this one). I see Genesis as more of an philosophical version of creation. I also subscribe to the "Old Earth" theory of creation.

Fair enough, then can u explain wat is your interpretation of the genesis 3:14-19 using an analogical approach

The PUNISHMENT is directly implimented by God, the SUFFERING is the consequences of the punishment. Technically very different.

I am puzzled by tis explanation. God gives the punishment, the punishment is suffering. (tat particular) Punishment=suffering. Now u telling me they r not the same thing. Wat is the technical difference between these 2 ?

So going to my POV of an analogical Genesis account, it is to show the consequences of disobedience. Therefore, to me, suffering is still the consequence of disobedience, the details are less important.

Suffering, if u follow genesis, did follow from disobedience. However technically the creator of suffering is still god, who implement it as suffering to the people. It is not men who have the power to create suffering and worse still implement it on themselves

stupidissmart SG

I think a fair definition of suffering can be derived from the bible

men have to work
men suffer pain
men suffer death

If there is no punishment to men, then men don't have to suffer these ordeals. And to say tat suffering is good (in any form how u argue), only means tat god had made the wrong model for adam since he is not meant to suffer initially. Adam is suppose to be good in his eye

davidche SG

not really so, suffering is good cos it can lead a person to grow MORE spiritually, or MORE than other ppl.

Suffering exists so that one is able to differenciate in between a situation where theres no suffering and a situation where there is. We wld be happy or satisfied with our lives when we WERE in a suffering state and later NOT.

And thus we know the difference. We will learn to zhen1 xi2 that period and thank God for that period.

[email protected] SG

I think you are crazy. If life gives you shit, you should give the shit back. If you still think like that, wait till i give you sufferings then u know.

M©+square SG

If God were to allow suffering to follow you for the rest of your life.

Would you accept it?

You are adopting a very ideal mindset.

Icemoon SG

yah lor .. even Jesus suffered only 3 years out of 33 years.

if you are strict, 1 week.

if you are stricter, few hours.

if you are strictest .. only at that particular moment of crucification.

M©+square SG

Laughing I didn't mean that leh.

Icemoon SG

I know.

But I make sense or not .. even Jesus only suffered for three years at most.

stupidissmart SG

not really so, suffering is good cos it can lead a person to grow MORE spiritually, or MORE than other ppl.

Tat is a very abstract answer. Wat do u mean by "growing spiritually" ? If u wanna grow more spiritually, then why don't u inflict pain onto yourself such as cutting off your feet or something

Suffering exists so that one is able to differenciate in between a situation where theres no suffering and a situation where there is. We wld be happy or satisfied with our lives when we WERE in a suffering state and later NOT.

If there is no suffering, is there ever a need to understand suffering watsoever ?

Icemoon SG

wah .. SIS is so hardworking even at this hour? Mr. Green

stupidissmart SG

Oh wow... I forgot it is 3 am in singapore already Mr. Green

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