Sufferings

stupidissmart SG

if there wasnt suffering wld there be happiness???

Why not ? The opposite of happiness is not suffering Rolling Eyes It is sadness.

davidche SG

cool.weve restarted the thinking process.

now follow me closely.

happiness oppsites sadness.

suffering causes sadness

so what causes happiness??

Theres no word good to describe it so lets put it as X shall we?

so if there wasnt suffering wld there be X

X wld simply be a normalty.

Why do we feel hot?
Because we know what it feels like to be cold.
Using cold as a 'weight',
we say that the weather is hot.

stupidissmart SG

cool.weve restarted the thinking process.

now follow me closely.

happiness oppsites sadness.

suffering causes sadness

I think u got it wrong. Suffering cause sadness, but it is not the only thing tat cause sadness. U can't link happiness to suffering because they r not truly in contrast with one another

so what causes happiness??

There r a lot of things, but attitude is the most important Rolling Eyes

Theres no word good to describe it so lets put it as X shall we?

so if there wasnt suffering wld there be X

X wld simply be a normalty.

U can't even give a name to tis "X" Laughing Is there even such a thing

Why do we feel hot?
Because we know what it feels like to be cold.
Using cold as a 'weight',
we say that the weather is hot.

But cold is due to the absence of heat Rolling Eyes same as non-suuffering and suffering

davidche SG

but even if cold is due to the absence of heat, heat must exist to let there bcome a absence.

Same for suffering and non suffering.

look dude, you r an anti-christian, admit it! Very Happy

davidche SG

good, so you understand my statement!

Chin Eng SG

didn't read all the mumbo jumbo above.....

Wrong question. God did not create suffering.... suffering is the consequence of disobedience. Disobedience may not be restricted to an individual, but because the entire human race disobeyed, therefore there is suffering.

[email protected] SG

this god is really chao chee bye. He claims he is perfect, creating a perfect world that go wrong due to our faults. Damn, anything that is perfect will never go wrong unless it is never perfect in the first place. If i am perfect, i will have a lot of women drooling over me. but it’s not, so i am not perfect. However, i do admit that most of these sufferings are caused by ourselves but the notion that this world is created perfectly is false.

ben1xy SG

a question then. Who created suffering? suffering cannot come into existence without being created. is there a force that is equal to that of God?

davidche SG

thank God for giving me the opportunity to listen to Rev tong's sermons Very Happy

davidche SG

yup. A very polite kind of rebutting. good!!

ben1xy SG

i am not rebutting lah ... Neutral

i am asking a question

davidche SG

ok loh, but my way of rebutting is:

Chin Eng, you r wrong!! Very Happy

stupidissmart SG

but even if cold is due to the absence of heat, heat must exist to let there bcome a absence.

Same for suffering and non suffering.

U r still talking rubbish here. Suffering exists simply and tat cause suffering. Tat is it. Without suffering, everybody is in a non-suffering state and tat is wat we want. Same as heat, everything exists because there is heat. Without heat, there wouldn't be something such as cold. There is no sunstance tat is"cold", same as no substance such as "non-suffering". But nevertheless tat is it. Debating with u is really pointless because u lack the intellectual for it

davidche SG

yes, you wld live in a non-suffering state but do you know your not suffering? No you dont, cos its simply a normalty. Do you know that you shld be happy since your not suffering? no you dont.

There r alot of life principals tat i hv found supporting this idea but my thoughts r faster than my typing so i am unable to express it out.

i fine example wld be, when you see the old or spastic ppl or children from certain societies I feel sad for them. But on the other hand, i felt satisfied with what i have in life(man3 zu2) and happy. When i saw what is suffering, i can refer back to my non-suffering state. And this is what moves me on(literally).

I do not know how it feels like to be those ppl so i cant say for them.Sometimes, when you see ppl hu cant walk, you thank God that you hv a pair of walking legs.

If one doesnt suffer anything, he will never grow spiritually.
No, i shldnt say this.
Shld be: If one suffers abit, one wld surely grow spiritually.

Chin Eng SG

Philosophically? Not everything is created (as in made directly), some things exist because of the lack of another. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Light exist, darkness does not. One can turn on a torch light and there is light, the opposite cannot exist - one holding up something that transmit darkness.... Laughing
If one believes in the Bible, suffering did not exist in the beginning. Suffering happens because of the consequences of the actions of Adam and Eve. Therefore suffering is a direct result of what Adam and Eve did. It is not a creation from God, per se.
It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.

So then what is suffering? Suffering is a have-not state of mind. What is suffering to one may not be suffering to another.

Here's where I say you need to be more mature in your writing....

Why am I wrong? Otherwise it is going to be one of those wu-liao post again.

stupidissmart SG

yes, you wld live in a non-suffering state but do you know your not suffering? No you dont, cos its simply a normalty. Do you know that you shld be happy since your not suffering? no you dont.

Isn't tat ideal ? Why will anyone wanna inflict suffering on themselves ?

There r alot of life principals tat i hv found supporting this idea but my thoughts r faster than my typing so i am unable to express it out.

Or there is nothing u wanna express out ?

i fine example wld be, when you see the old or spastic ppl or children from certain societies I feel sad for them. But on the other hand, i felt satisfied with what i have in life(man3 zu2) and happy. When i saw what is suffering, i can refer back to my non-suffering state. And this is what moves me on(literally).

I think u r sadistic. I felt sad for them but I do not go and become damn proud of myself for being normal. I wish they do not suffer and lead normal lives, but u instead think they deserve to suffer so u can feel good for yourself

I do not know how it feels like to be those ppl so i cant say for them.Sometimes, when you see ppl hu cant walk, you thank God that you hv a pair of walking legs.

If one doesnt suffer anything, he will never grow spiritually.
No, i shldnt say this.
Shld be: If one suffers abit, one wld surely grow spiritually.

Yup, u just reinforce your sadistic nature. If u so wanna grow spiritually, why don't u inflict pain or cut off your legs yourself ? U would surely grow spiritually isn't it ?

stupidissmart SG

It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.

I think u need to take into considerations tat "injury" is already created then. In the case of "suffering", it is like your children disobey u and eat a fruit, then u make them injured and make them suffer. Secondly, the suffering they experienced is directly implemented by god, not indirectly from your example. Rolling Eyes

davidche SG

Philosophically? Not everything is created (as in made directly), some things exist because of the lack of another. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Light exist, darkness does not. One can turn on a torch light and there is light, the opposite cannot exist - one holding up something that transmit darkness....
If one believes in the Bible, suffering did not exist in the beginning. Suffering happens because of the consequences of the actions of Adam and Eve. Therefore suffering is a direct result of what Adam and Eve did. It is not a creation from God, per se.
It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.

So then what is suffering? Suffering is a have-not state of mind. What is suffering to one may not be suffering to another.

sounds logical, but think about it.....if suffering doesnt exist in the first place, there wldnt be the consequence that you say is the action of adam and eve.
In other words, when adam and eve sins, the suffering must be created for that to happen as a consequence.

Now thats my first question.

Secondly, if suffering is the consequence of adam and eve,which it is, God must have allowed suffering to be the consequence, thus God has allowed suffering?

stupidissmart SG

From genesis 3

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Isn't tat already explicitly mention god create all these sufferings to men Rolling Eyes

Chin Eng SG

Ok, you example is still the Genesis account. Personally, I am not one of those who subscribe to the "literal" account of Genesis but as an analogical approach(yup, some of my Christian brethen may flame me for this one). I see Genesis as more of an philosophical version of creation. I also subscribe to the "Old Earth" theory of creation.

The PUNISHMENT is directly implimented by God, the SUFFERING is the consequences of the punishment. Technically very different.

So going to my POV of an analogical Genesis account, it is to show the consequences of disobedience. Therefore, to me, suffering is still the consequence of disobedience, the details are less important.

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