A sermon to share: Sinners in the hands of an angry God

stupidissmart SG

ok, lets forget about christian/non-christian for a moment, in fact lets take religion/race/nationality/status out of the equation.

Anyway, the whole idea of the argument is to show tat the idea of heaven hell etc is totally based on your religion and not on whether u had commit good or not. If u wanna take out christian/non-christian etc out of the equation, the original objective of the argument is lost.

lets even make it easier for the sake of simpilicity and discussion sake (of course you can make it as complex as you want)
1 credit point if you do a good deed
1 debit point if you do a bad deed

exceed the benchmark, go to heaven
failed the benchmark, to hell

To me tis is still lacking, since first, for a bad deed there r various degree of magnitude to it. U can't grade murder and rape to be just 1 debit point which is the same as magnitude as littering or gossipping.

Secondly when comes to judgement, the magnitude is important as well. The person who had commit more bad deeds should be punish more than a person who had commit lesser bad deeds. In your case a person who kill 1000 people may get the same punishment with a person who had just litter throughout his life. Tis again is unfair. In my case, u get to be punish according to the amount of bad deeds u had committed.

a note to add, not doing bad only means the person is not bad (he may not even had done anything at all), one need to be doing good to be consider good, and the benchmark is to ensure only those good enough can enter heaven (not bad enough does not means its good enough

Tis I take a different stand from u. A person who had done no wrong should not deserve any punishment such as going to hell. Even though he may not do anything right, he should not be punished. In your case it is similar to forcing everybody to go to jail when they did not do volunteer service Rolling Eyes

vince69 SG

what you say about the grading/punishment is correct, but like I say, the 1 point/1 punishment system is just for the sake of keeping the discussion simple (since neither of us can implement anything anyway).

klydeer SG

as u know, i am a little deer - so more concerned with drinking water than fighting. please dont pull me into your CRO warline.

stupidissmart SG

as stated in the second part, the magnitude of punishment should be considered and the people are punished according. If, as long as u fail the benchmark instead of dealing proportionally, then it is the same as giving out death sentence to every offence in this world. Littering is death penalty, illegal parking is death penalty, jay walking is death penalty and not flushing the toilet is death penalty. Tat again is ridiculous

Furthermore, for my part on judgement system, mitigation is a area of venue where your good deeds r considered before meting out punishment. Same as in the law of court today. If u r a good person doing volunteer service every week and u commit theft unwittedly, u get a lesser punishment. In fact mitigation can show mercy to people if needed such as giving much lesser punishment for a person who steal food because he is hungry etc.

Fomr my part of justice, it persistently discourage people from sinning. For your idea, it encourage good people to sin. (since good people have enough credit points and thus face no problems if they do a few sins here and there) IMO the law made by men is still superior

klydeer SG

Dear SIS,

i am not asking about what you think of my "religious pov".

i am more interested to know about who do you think should be allocating all those points you mentioned.

And please note that far from what the CRO assumed, there is no malice or intention to go to war with you from my part.

i am just really, interested to know more about your viewpoint and thinking, so that i, a little deer can learn more.

thank you.

stupidissmart SG

The purpose of my argument is to show tat the real purpose of hell, from a christian point of view is to throw non-believer in instead of sinners. If u r not christian, then it is not about u.

As stated, it is "divine" judgement where people r punish acording to their sins when they r alive. Since it is "divine" it has to be done by someone "supernatural". If u r a christian/muslim/jew, then an appropriate person is to do tis job is god. Who is the one who judge men in the end of time according to scripture ? If u r some idol worshipper/taoist, then the magistrate of hell do the job. If u r a buddhist, the karma can do the job. The point is to show tat a fair system of judgement is possible and easy. However strangely some being chooses an unfair system to carry out justice and clearly shows tat sinning become an irrelevant criteria

vince69 SG

Just one thing to add, not doing bad does not means its good, it just means the person is not bad, and doing good does not means good enough to enter into heaven, the benchmark to enter heaven is to be able to do it perfectly reason being, God is perfect, and anything that is short of being perfect is not acceptable.

stupidissmart SG

First, an unfair god is not perfect Rolling Eyes If your father is a doctor, u must be a doctor or greater otherwise u can be killed by your father since anything short of your father is unaceptable? Tis is again twisted logic here. Furthermore, u r designed to be different from god. God is omnipotent, r u omnipotent ? God can have anything he want. Can u have anything u want ? If I can have everything I want, I will not sin either. Will anybody sin if they can have everything they want ? No, because there is no longer a reason to sin. They don't need to steal because they have all the money in the world. They don't need to rape because they can have any girls they want. They don't need to murder because everyone have everything they want and won't have conflict of interest. Comparing god to men is double standard comparison.

Furthermore we r talking about a punishment (going to hell) here. Not doing good deeds just meant u do not deserve a reward but is should not meant punishment. U punish your kids when they do something wrong, not when they did not do good enough. Rolling Eyes

vince69 SG

to the Bible

Matthew 20
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
Jesus Again Predicts His Death

so, is God fair?
yes, if man insisted on being judged according to what they do, then man have to meet the standard set by God for doing them right. Its like going taking an exam, a student must answer the questions based on the standard set by the eaxmination board.

Can God choose to be generous to those who choose to put their trust on Him instead of their own works? Since its is done out of His own abundance, who can say He cannot?

Let me ask you a question, will you give your money to everyone you see on the road? or only to those you want to give? Smile

stupidissmart SG

Can God choose to be generous to those who choose to put their trust on Him instead of their own works? Since its is done out of His own abundance, who can say He cannot?

Let me ask you a question, will you give your money to everyone you see on the road? or only to those you want to give?

Aaaaa... then u have shown to everyone tat god send people to hell simply because they do not believe him, and not because they sin. He just give salvation to people he like and send people to hell to people who he did not like. It is much like punsihing whoever u like for no reason and rhyme instead of acting like judges and give a fair verdict to people for their actions. The whole things about hell is for sinner is just a cover up.

vince69 SG

Actually its more like, God allows those that meets His requirement on His term to enter into heaven. And as for the rest who refused, He will just let them continue on their journey to their ultimate destination that they rightly deserved.

you have a nice day, me have to go back to work.

stupidissmart SG

U r just rephrasing the words for the same idea. Rolling Eyes His requirement is, God must like him, and he only like christians. And tat is the only real requirement. For the "continue on journey", it is sending them to hell. He purposely made hell to keep the devil and other opposition who he did not like. In the end the conclusion is still

God send people to hell not because they sin, but really because he wilfully dislike them.

stupidissmart SG

yes, if man insisted on being judged according to what they do, then man have to meet the standard set by God for doing them right. Its like going taking an exam, a student must answer the questions based on the standard set by the eaxmination board.

BTW, god did not even give an "exam paper" to non-christians and giv them an F immediately. And i do not see any argument tat show god is fair here.

laoda99 SG

Actually I agree with u in the sense that God is sovereign. If God wants u to go paradise, who are u to argue with him? If God wants to send u to hell for ur misdeeds, who are u to argue with him? U can keep arguing here abt cover ups/unfairness, but that won't help u in ur relationship with God.

We will know in due course. Really no point arguing with u now.

stupidissmart SG

Hmmm....I have read back again and u were telling abt holes in the world legislative system....are there no holes in the system?

I am not being god, I am just using the possibility of having god power but use in a Man made system called law, a being which some feel to be too stupid to be acceptable. If u can find a loophole for tis system u have found a loophole in the world legislative system. In fact some taoist use tis idea as a way to discourage people from committing sins. In the divine sense, after u pay the price for your sin by being in hell in seconds, u can go to heaven or something if u like.

I have say holes, but I am challenging u to find loopholes for the legislative system. However u come about and say I say there r many loop holes which I have never meant for it. Please hightlight to me where on earth do u read the part where I claim there r many loopholes in the human system.

R there no holes in the system ? tat is the challenge to u. Find me the fault in the system because I have easily shown tons of loopholes in the christian version of justice

Well....tat depends on wat u deem as fair....if u are a murderer and is truely repentent in the end....will u find it "fair" if God forgive u?

Repentent in the end doesn't correct the wrong u have done. Repentent or not, u have to face the music. Otherwise everyone could commit every sin in the world and just have to be repentent in the end. Tis is again encouraging sin to occur

haiz...you twisting words again? And u did not answer my questions is it fair when somebody miss the boat by just 1 pt (according to your system).....or somebody who has been good committed a grave sin tat makes him accumulate a million pts and send him to hell......is that fair for u then?

I thought i have answered tis question. For mitigation a normally good boy can get a lower punishment, however he still did wrong in murdering someone and he still get punished. Tat is fair because tat person had really sin. If u miss the boat by 1 point, u just got burn by 1 second. Is tat so hard to bear ? Rolling Eyes According to christainity u got burnt for eternity if u miss something by 1 point. Tat is the terrible and unfair part

Remember....what is acceptable to u.....may not be acceptable to God. And wat is acceptable to God....looks like not acceptable to you. But it's ok. We will see in due course. No pt arguing it anymore.

From wat u have written u just accept anything given to u and u don't ponder whether is it right or wrong, logical or flawed. If one day the church say tat u have to gorge out your eyes or kill yourself to go to heaven, u will probably do it. Who r u to argue with "god". Well, good luck to u

Seems the conclusion is again supported by another who felt tat it is not sinners tat go to hell but non-believers. The sinner thing is just a cover up

vince69 SG

yes, All sinners are destined to go to hell, period.

hang on, according to the Bible, All have sinned, making all of us destined to hell.

"There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

allow me to paraphase this for you,
There is no difference (christian or non christian), for all (everyone) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (hence destined to hell), and are (required to be) justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus

Romans 3:21-26 (for full picture, read Romans 3)
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

stupidissmart SG

The reply above is saying everyone goes to hell because the standard is unachievable and whoever goes to heaven has nothing to do with sinning anymore but rather with whether god like u or not. It still meant the same thing.

laoda99 SG

Part in red.....should change to whether God wills it or not...... Mr. Green

good...can see u are progressing

stupidissmart SG

If u can tell me the difference between “like it or not” and “wills it or not” and convince me the change is significant and necessary, then i may consider the change. BTW, tis conclusion is wat I have stated since page 5 ? The whole argument is always on the fact tat sinning is not a criteria isn’t it ?

klydeer SG

the purpose of your argument is not valid since you misunderstood Christianity and also refused to talk about your own stand in the system you yourself suggested.

So....who do you think should preside over your suggested system ? Christians do not subsribe to your system - so why talk about them and God ?

Let's talk about you and the point system since according to you - it is "fairer and easier" ? So who ?

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