An article on Purgatory

last SG · 2006-05-24T17:23:58+00:00

The issue is not whether there is a Purgatory. We can argue till the cows come home and still we have two sides of the story. My thinking is simple. God's sa...

vince69 SG

Originally posted by Repented John 2:
I seem to agree with our catholic brethren. After their much clarification, i can accept a purgatory for [b]saved Christians.

Btw, brey & vince from NCC which preaches the heresy of once saved always saved & no repentance is needed for forgiveness bcos i know Ps Prince & people there preach that u don't even need to ask for forgiveness bcos u are already forgiven once for all. Which i find heretical.

Sorry brey & vince abt this. I am not against u personally. Smile [/b]

John, its ok, no offense taken, you are entitled to your opinion.

Allow me to share as I understand it, and express to the best of my ability using general terms.

When a person repent (change of mindset), he is saved and saved for enternality.
This is made possible by the grace of God, through the works of Christ, testified by the Holy Spirit. Nothing we do or did not do can add or minus from what Christ had already done and accomplished.

What is the different then? Before being saved, sin is naturally a part of him, so committing sin is natural, After being saved, he is a 'new' person (the old had passed away, we are now a new creation), committing sin is now not a natural thing.

After being saved, will this he still sin? yes. the flesh is still very much alive.
This is where the grace of God and perfection of Christ comes in, when a believer commited sin, knowing that there is now no comdemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, have the assurance of acceptance from God the Father, he can now find strength to turn back to God, repent and receive forgiveness, instead of running away from God because of fear and ended up deeper in sin. (reversing this, If this person when he had sin (fallen), feels that God condemned him or God had rejected him, do anyone think thinks he will be able to find courage to stand before God and repent and ask for forgiveness?)

Is this a ticket to sin? absolutely not, rather its this assurance of acceptance by the grace of God that we can find the strength and ability to resist temptation and flee from sin. Its because we know that we had been forgiven much, that we are able to love much.

since we are at this topic, let me add afew more

what is repentance? Its a change in mindset, to stop seeing things/situation/acts as how we see it, and start seeing them as how God sees them.

The life of a believer is not about doing what is legal and not doing what is illegal as according to the Law, but rather by the grace of God, doing the right things as how God sees them, guided by the Holy Spirit within us.

Thank you.
God bless.

Smile

(susgest reading from the book of Romans, I think the Apostle Paul explain this quite clearly here)

Ironside SG

Christ sacrifice is enough and sufficient for all sins-past, present and future.

Positionally all our sins are covered-past, present and future. That's why we are perfectly justified in God's eyes. This is what is called as salvation forgiveness or positional forgiveness by theologians.

However, in our walk here on earth our condition does not necesarilly reflect what we are in position. We sin and we stumble.

Here we need parental forgiveness. We need to confess our sins and repent from them.

Learn to distingush POSITIONAL TRUTHS FROM CONDITIONAL TRUTHS.
Between the believers STANDING AND THE BELIEVERS STATE. Positional truths are eternal. The condition of the Believer varies from time to time. We sin because we do not walk according to what we are in Christ [position].

In God's eyes we have already died to sin. [Positional truth] But our actual condition is not. God enjoins us to walk according to our position not according to our condition.

In God's eyes we are already perfected [positional truth] But our conditon is not yet perfect.

In God's eyes we are already glorified. That's positional truth.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

But our actual condition here is not yet glorified. OUr bodies deteroriate. We still sin and etc.

God's unchanging love to us Christians is based on what we are in Christ [postional truth].

question: Why do we need to go to purgatory since Christ's sacrifice has perfected and glorified us? Can purgatory [if there is such a teaching as purgatory] perfect and glorify us acccording to the Scriptures?

vince69 SG

Originally posted by Ironside:

Christ sacrifice is enough and sufficient for all sins-past, present and future.

Positionally all our sins are covered-past, present and future. That's why we are perfectly justified in God's eyes. This is what is called as salvation forgiveness or positional forgiveness by theologians.

However, in our walk here on earth our condition does not necesarilly reflect what we are in position. We sin and we stumble.

Here we need parental forgiveness. We need to confess our sins and repent from them.

Learn to distingush POSITIONAL TRUTHS FROM CONDITIONAL TRUTHS.
Between the believers STANDING AND THE BELIEVERS STATE. Positional truths are eternal. The condition of the Believer varies from time to time. We sin because we do not walk according to what we are in Christ [position].

In God's eyes we have already died to sin. [Positional truth] But our actual condition is not. God enjoins us to walk according to our position not according to our condition.

In God's eyes we are already perfected [positional truth] But our conditon is not yet perfect.

In [b]God's eyes we are already glorified. That's positional truth.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

But our actual condition here is not yet glorified. OUr bodies deteroriate. We still sin and etc.

God's unchanging love to us Christians is based on what we are in Christ [postional truth].

question: Why do we need to go to purgatory since Christ's sacrifice has perfected and glorified us? Can purgatory perfect and glorify us acccording to the Scriptures?

[/b]

Ironside,
Thanks for the clarification on Positional and Conditional Truth.
Smile

gasband SG

Yeah…I think IRONSIDE explained it well….no matter what, to me, the BIBLE we are reading now and ONLY the BIBLE, contains words of the LIVING GOD. I do not believe in the PURGATORY or WHATEVER NAME you wanna give it. BUT, well, i accept there are differences and God gave us the free will to choose to believe in anything we choose to. So on my part, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

Ironside SG

glad to be of service vince brother Very Happy

SingaporeMacross SG

Seeing only? Not doing?

vince69 SG

the thing is if see also not right, then doing is definitely wrong, if seeing is correct, naturally the doing will follows.
right belief results in responsible/right living, not the other way round.
true replentance comes from the heart, influencing the mind, then the actions will follows naturally.
Smile

SingaporeMacross SG

follow your conscience?

vince69 SG

the inner guidance by the Holy Spirit. Smile

SingaporeMacross SG

what if your conscience is wrong?

vince69 SG

wrong in?

SingaporeMacross SG

your conscience tells you its right, but objectively its wrong.

vince69 SG

if wrong then make mistake loh...

but just to be in context with the subject and the discussion so far, are we still on the subject of repentence and purifications and puratory?

SingaporeMacross SG

oh yes.... Mr. Green

Ironside SG

deleted

breytonhartge SG

RJ2,

I may attend NCC, but I do not accept that once saved always saved, otherwise why would we be asked to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

I stll do not accept the notion of purgatory which I still think is a heresy, because why is there need for further purification works if putting on Yeshua is not enough?

Repented John 2 SG

Well, Ps Prince also guilty of condemning other preachers of being pharisees & law givers etc etc. In effect saying his is the right interpretation of scripture. The rest all missed it by focusing on law or mix law with grace etc.

Repented John 2 SG

It's true. I heard it myself from him & other members from NCC. Not no repentance but don't need to pray for forgiveness bcos all sins already forgiven. Just pray that i am the righteousness of God in Christ.

Repented John 2 SG

Ok acceptable doctrine to me. Thanks. Smile

But one question. How do we know we are truly saved in the first place? Bcos an apostate can still call himself a Christian & embrace this ideology & forgive himself when he sins. If a so called Christian still sins, is he saved in the first place? Thanks.

Repented John 2 SG

Originally posted by Ironside:

Christ sacrifice is enough and sufficient for all sins-past, present and future.

Positionally all our sins are covered-past, present and future. That's why we are perfectly justified in God's eyes. This is what is called as salvation forgiveness or positional forgiveness by theologians.

However, in our walk here on earth our condition does not necesarilly reflect what we are in position. We sin and we stumble.

Here we need parental forgiveness. We need to confess our sins and repent from them.

Learn to distingush POSITIONAL TRUTHS FROM CONDITIONAL TRUTHS.
Between the believers STANDING AND THE BELIEVERS STATE. Positional truths are eternal. The condition of the Believer varies from time to time. We sin because we do not walk according to what we are in Christ [position].

In God's eyes we have already died to sin. [Positional truth] But our actual condition is not. God enjoins us to walk according to our position not according to our condition.

In God's eyes we are already perfected [positional truth] But our conditon is not yet perfect.

In [b]God's eyes we are already glorified. That's positional truth.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

But our actual condition here is not yet glorified. OUr bodies deteroriate. We still sin and etc.

God's unchanging love to us Christians is based on what we are in Christ [postional truth].

question: Why do we need to go to purgatory since Christ's sacrifice has perfected and glorified us? Can purgatory [if there is such a teaching as purgatory] perfect and glorify us acccording to the Scriptures?

[/b]

Hmmm. Ok. Smile

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