Christmas

last SG · 2005-06-04T03:06:16+00:00

It doesn't seem to dawn on most people that just because the Gospel accounts are the only sources for the Christ story doesn't make them trustworthy: people...

stupidissmart SG

Because firstly, the calendar is relatively late (and rather difficult) invention. The West follows the Julean calendar, put in place by Julius Ceasar in 46 BC. He established January 1st as the start of the year and let the previous year drag on by 445 days, to correct the Roman calendar and synchronize it with the position of the Sun. And that was only one of many calendar systems in use. You can imagine how accurate it is to place any event in those times.

The date pf other events such as wars etc can be pinpoint. Even though it is relatively chaotic, but u can still find the days if u know on which calander, which date he die. U see u even know julius caesar die on 46 BC isn't it ? BC is the new calendar isn't it ? Why u know how to convert to find julius death and suddenly u don't know how to convert back when christ dies ?

Without a standarized calendar, it is very to say in which year an event happened. For example, you may know your mother's birthday in day, month and year. Now do you know her birthday in day, month and year format in the Chinese lunar calendar. And don't just say it is the year of the rooster, cos' that happens once every 12 years and your grandchildren will never know which year of the rooster.

If I want to, it can be converted back. It is simple work and it is achievable. U want me to convert to musim calender also acheivable. it just meant work, not impossibility

In ancient times, it is therefore common to date an event after the reign of the king. That also happens in China...my grandfather was born in the first year of the reign of the Emperor Xuantong...that could be anytime between Dec 1908 to Nov 1909. We know Jesus was born at the time Augustus Caesar ordered a census, when Quirinius was ruler of Syria. You might say that the census year must therefore be 1AD. But actually the census took a few years to conduct and Quirinius might have been twice ruler of Syria. Our historians are not particularly sure of their dates, and so it is difficult to know when Jesus was born.

U r wrong in the sense if u look out, u can find out wat year exactly is the reign of Emperor watever. There is a system involved in tabulating the time, whose ever time.

oxford mushroom SG

46BC...means 46 years before the date Christ was born, according to the church. But what if Christ was not born on 1 AD but say, 3 BC? Then Julius Caesar's year of death will also have to change.

This is not the place to go into an academic discussion about why some scholars think Jesus was born in 3 BC but you can read more for yourself on the internet and various books.

For example,
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHRDAT.TXT

Check it out...

stupidissmart SG

46BC...means 46 years before the date Christ was born, according to the church. But what if Christ was not born on 1 AD but say, 3 BC? Then Julius Caesar's year of death will also have to change.

Ahh... but then all the other time system r consistent since the people living then is real. Nobody have any problem with dating on other events. There wouldn't have any changes in the year system. The only proposed difference in years u given is, well, dated to christ. If all the other dating scheme is accurate, then there shouldn't have any problem finding out the important dates of christ life. If u look at your website, u found tat even the day of the eclipse is accurate and not ambiguous. In fact your website highlight a contradiction of the date he die, tat is why there is much debate on it since selection of a part of th bible to be true will inevitably forsake a section of the bible and labeled it as wrong.

U give an example of christ being wrongly dated. Well, tis only shows the uncertainty of important dates of jesus, which give more arguments to show him more fiction than facts

F Takumi SG

First half, AC Milan 3 Liverpool 0 Laughing

oxford mushroom SG

So this is what this thread is about huh? That Jesus must be fiction cos' we cannot be sure when he was born and when he died? I don't even know when my grandfather was born and that was less than 100 years ago Smile

So is it your argument that he did not exist, was not born, did not die and certainly did not resurrect; but someone wrote a bestseller fiction that is read over 2000 years and commands a following of millions of people today. What's more, followers of 2 other major rival religions (Judaism and Islam) also believed the story that at least he existed. Wow....

I better read the bible then...maybe I can learn to write something better than Dan Brown...

oxford mushroom SG

Then it surely can't be on the festival since he went, he escaped, he got caught later and he dies a few day after.

Btw, something caught my eye about this earlier post. Where did you read about Jesus escaped from the Roman captors? Haven't heard that one..

Incidentally, I am not knowledgeable about biblical issues...not my field at all. I am more comfortable with mice and genes...and I have not been to church for more than a year already Embarassed

Icemoon SG

Or mushrooms? Mr. Green

stupidissmart SG

I don't know about your grandfather but if u wanna ask any person birth and death date, I mean FAMOUS people, u can find it to be accurate. If u go and check, u can find when and where napoleon was borned, find mother teresa borned and died. In fact aristotle date of birth and death is 384 BC and died in 322 BC respectively. Even plato is May 21, 427 BC, Death Date:, January 14, 347 BC. These people live and died be fore jesus was even borned. How come Jesus nobody can be sure ?

So is it your argument that he did not exist, was not born, did not die and certainly did not resurrect; but someone wrote a bestseller fiction that is read over 2000 years and commands a following of millions of people today. What's more, followers of 2 other major rival religions (Judaism and Islam) also believed the story that at least he existed. Wow....

Yes Very Happy U know Buddhism also has its share of accomplishment such as influencing china and india, influencing more people for more years than the bible. SO if u believe bible to be true, then buddhims must be false and by tat u r trying to say tat someone wrote a bestseller tat commands millions of people in the past for over 5000 years. There r mnay other example such as zoratranian and hinduism and taoist. Com'on, tat is wat religion is all about isn't it ?

Icemoon SG

How? Issit? Look what I uncovered (http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/plato.htm):

It is widely accepted that Plato, the Athenian philosopher, was born in 428-7 B.C.E and died at the age of eighty or eighty-one at 348-7 B.C.E. These dates, however, are not entirely certain, for according to Diogenes Laertius, following Apollodorus' chronology, Plato was born the year Pericles died, was six years younger than Isocrates, and died at the age of eighty-four ( D.L. 3.2-3.3). If Plato's date of death is correct in Apollodorus' version, Plato would have been born in 430 or 431. Diogenes' claim that Plato was born the year Pericles died would put his birth in 429. Later (at 3.6), Diogenes says that Plato was twenty-eight when Socrates was put to death (in 399), which would, again, put his year of birth at 427.

Very Happy

Yes Very Happy U know Buddhism also has its share of accomplishment such as influencing china and india, influencing more people for more years than the bible.

Let's not go into comparisons if we cannot agree on an objective standard. FYI, more years don't mean more people, as seen in ancient Egyptian religions.

Aiya, you talk so much influence china and india .. yet what I see today? India has stronger influence of Hinduism while china is official communist with no emphasis on Buddhism.

In contrast, what began in little town in a small nation (compare with china and india .. u know they how big or not?) is now the main religion in the western world. And thanks to missionaries, the gospel is even heard in ulu tribes in ulu parts of the world.

If you want to compare, then I say the Jesuit priests introduced the modern calendar to China, during the Qing Dynasty. And I can go on. Even western classical music is founded on christianity. You know the chorales of Bach? Handel's Messiah? And I can go on and on ..

There r mnay other example such as zoratranian and hinduism and taoist. Com'on, tat is wat religion is all about isn't it ?

Don't give me the crap lah. Here is my knockdown argument:

Even SIS is more familiar with Bible than the Bbhagavad Gita, the Dao De Jing and the secret gongfu manuals of the Ming Sect (of Jin Yong fame) or the Yijing Jing and Xishui Jing from Shaolin. Mr. Green

I dare say there are many professed taoists and buddhists who are not even acquainted with their holy books. There are 66 books in the Bible. How many chapters are there in the Dao De Jing? Bible starts with "In the beginning ..". What is the opening verse in the Dao De Jing?

stupidissmart SG

How? Issit? Look what I uncovered (http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/plato.htm):

Okay, then let me ask is there anything wrong with the dates of aristotle, or galileo or other famous people death and birth dates ?

The we should start to say tat more people, doesn't make a religion correct or wrong. If u r talking about influence, in the past buddhism has a higher population than christainity. And talking about introducing music etc, wat has tis got to do with saying christainity must be true ? Nothing as well. If going by your argument, then all of us should be jewish since jews started earlier, influence more people and started 2 major religions. As said before, religion can influence people blindly and surely only one of them can be right, making the other fiction. Telling people there r many believers means nothing. It is the same as telling china is always right since it has a bigger population.

I dare say there are many professed taoists and buddhists who are not even acquainted with their holy books. There are 66 books in the Bible. How many chapters are there in the Dao De Jing? Bible starts with "In the beginning ..". What is the opening verse in the Dao De Jing?

So wat is your point u r trying to say ? The longer the book the better ? Telling straight to the point a story is better than giving a general introduction first ? All these doesn't prove a religion right too isn't it ? WHy don't u tell me wat is wrong with saying in the beginning than the intro from dao de jing ?

F Takumi SG

The debate is not on whether Jesus existed, everyone knows he did.

I'm just curious about Christmas and its pagan ancestry.

Icemoon SG

Unfair comparison. Aristotle's father was the family physician of King Philip of Macedonia (http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/aristot2.html). Whereas Jesus' parents were just simple people not connected to famous people, hence less likely to leave a proper record.

Hello, even Siddhartha Gautama was a prince ok.

If u r talking about influence, in the past buddhism has a higher population than christainity.

How you know?

And talking about introducing music etc, wat has tis got to do with saying christainity must be true ?

Nothing. I had the impression you are trying to compare whose influences is bigger.

WHy don't u tell me wat is wrong with saying in the beginning than the intro from dao de jing ?

Aiya I think you misunderstood lah. I was trying to say the Bible is the true bestseller among the religious holy books. Very Happy

stupidissmart SG

The debate is not on whether Jesus existed, everyone knows he did

Personally, I do not believe jesus exists. And if in the remotest possibility tat he exists, he is a fraud. If u believe he exists and he is not a fraud, then u r really a christian

Why unfair ? Jesus is god isn't it ? U mean the level of god is lower than king or princes ? Jesus himself know his own birth date, his mother also know the date and probably his foster father as well. I thought even the wise men who see his birth also know of the date as well. His disciple is spreading the word and he don't bother to find out when he live or die ? Tat sounds ridiculous

How you know?

Well, considering the fact tat it used to be the national religion of china, japan, thailand, vietnam, cambodia, myanmar, tibet and have a large follower base in India, it seems to be for a period of time more influencial than christainity considering the fact tat is started off as a cult. Anyway both started at different times so in the past it is really true buddhist is more influencial, logically more since Christ is not born yet Mr. Green

Nothing. I had the impression you are trying to compare whose influences is bigger

The person who wanna compare the influential is not really me Rolling Eyes I am trying to bring out the point tat religion makes peopel irrational and generate a lot of believers even though it is for sure most of them r wrong. Just because there is a lot of believers meant nothing

Aiya I think you misunderstood lah. I was trying to say the Bible is the true bestseller among the religious holy books.

How do u know ? I thought the muslim quran is an equally good contender to be the best world seller since it was believed it is the religion with the most believers.

Icemoon SG

Aiya, maybe he is just a wise man or something. Don't need go into extreme say he is a fraud right?

Why unfair ? Jesus is god isn't it ? U mean the level of god is lower than king or princes ?

Aiya, the birthday of God not important since God has no beginning. Mr. Green

His disciple is spreading the word and he don't bother to find out when he live or die ? Tat sounds ridiculous

How does knowing birthday bring about salvation? Hello, is knowing your rabbi's birthday one of the laws also? Very Happy

You sound even more ridiculous now.

Well, considering the fact tat it used to be the national religion of china, japan, thailand, vietnam, cambodia, myanmar, tibet and have a large follower base in India, it seems to be for a period of time more influencial than christainity considering the fact tat is started off as a cult.

But the buddhism in these countries are not coordinated. It is like they sprung up here and there due to different factors. But look at the Catholic Church. It exerts its power even in different nation states starting from Emperor Constantine, notwithstanding the dark ages.

What you mean "it started off as a cult"?

How do u know ? I thought the muslim quran is an equally good contender to be the best world seller since it was believed it is the religion with the most believers.

Don't talk cock lah. You know how many verses from the Quran other than the much twisted "fulfill will of God to enjoy virgins in heaven" teaching?

I don't think you know what is the first book or chapter in the Quran and what does it talk about.

If a much learned person like SIS also dunno much about the Quran, you think it is world best seller meh? Mr. Green

stupidissmart SG

Aiya, maybe he is just a wise man or something. Don't need go into extreme say he is a fraud right?

U mean a wise men will lie about saying he is the son of god or god himself ? Tis is not extreme, it is really a lie. If u believe he is a real son of god, then u r a christian. There is nothign wrong here isn't it ?

Aiya, the birthday of God not important since God has no beginning

There r tons of people in tis world who say tat christmas is important

How does knowing birthday bring about salvation? Hello, is knowing your rabbi's birthday one of the laws also?

You sound even more ridiculous now.

Sorry man, the discussion is not whether is it important or not in your religion. It is on whether do they know or not from a hitorical view. Even the birth date of someone with a much lesser importance is recorded, yet he is not recorded ? SOmething is wrong isn't it ?

But the buddhism in these countries are not coordinated. It is like they sprung up here and there due to different factors. But look at the Catholic Church. It exerts its power even in different nation states starting from Emperor Constantine, notwithstanding the dark ages.

What you mean "it started off as a cult"?

So wat if it is not coordinated ? i am saying buddhism, not a particular school of buddhism. If u look at buddhism, they do influence the stated country too as well, and tat age is longer than christainity.

BTW, after jesus death, the main religion is jewish and the disciples r prosecuted almost everywhere. They r really a cult

Don't talk cock lah. You know how many verses from the Quran other than the much twisted "fulfill will of God to enjoy virgins in heaven" teaching?

I don't think you know what is the first book or chapter in the Quran and what does it talk about.

If a much learned person like SIS also dunno much about the Quran, you think it is world best seller meh?

U know how to read or not ? the question is on whether which book sell out more. Now wat the hell r u talking about by mentioning totally different things ? U might as well admit u do not know if the quran do sell out more or got read more than the bible. U think it is twisted, people think the bible is twisted. In the bible they say tat the wives and children of your slave is your possession and u can make them your sex slave if u want. U think tat isn't twisted ? U think I do not know the quran, but then u r not me and u can't say for sure either. Why do u get tis conclusion ? U r getting out of point. All these points never acheive its effect of saying the bible get sell out more than the quran. U don't know, u say the wrong conclusion then u just have to admit it isn't it. [/quote]

stupidissmart SG

double

alexkusu SG

I think Jesus is something people created as a need for a higher power, a divine intervention of their own lives. The need for a metaphysical being that can be worshipped by the masses. Jesus may have been a real person, but I believed he was a mere mortal, not a divine being. He may have super natural gifts that can act as a catalyst for him to be immortalised throughout the past until the present but heck, what do we know? Aliens are more realistic these days anyway Laughing

elektra SG

it was known that at the time of his birth, some people make out a constellation of goats in the night sky. so he's Aries... in April.. i forgot which date.. watched this documentary @ discovery/ national geographic... and his birth is actually 5 yrs earlier than 0 BC.

stupidissmart SG

My personal opinion of jesus if he lived is tis. He is probably a target of bullying since young because he is, well, a really bas... I mean a son with no proper father. In those jewish days, tat is probably little tolerated and he get victimised, leading him to hate the religion since young and he will never have a good future except being a carpenter. Then one day he together with some of his friends formed a group who like to go around acting and cheating people by saying he is god or something. His friend will go ahead and prepare some acting of being heal etc or prepare some illusion to trick the otherwise naive people. He is pretty clever and well, do want to go against jewish and he made some interesting replies to the people who want to say they r fraud. He became popular because people felt the ways of the jews r, probably too harsh and ridiculous to live by and his idea of being more relax and humane makes it popular. He have to continue to use the OT although he do not like it because he already told people he is son of the old god before. He can't contradict himself then. Anyway tis catch the eyes of the jewish priest and they decide to prosecute and kill him. He got caught and he knew he can't escape, so he might as well say he die for the people to make the best use of the lousy cards dealt to him. After he died, he and the rest of his friends, who still wanna go around cheating, decide to say he reserect and carry on the same game so they can laze in future. Much future in time, a political organisation decide to use tis cult as a new pawn in his quest for conquest, compile the bible of things he want to include and delete off things he do not want to, and exaggerated almost everything tat jesus had done to godly status. After tat, it is history

Tis is a possible scenario but of course, it is all wat I imagine myself and certainly not proven. Anyway it has been fun writing tis scenario, to me at least Razz So if there is anyone who wanna come out and say tis is bull, I am not gonna stop u. The above is really bull but it do sounds like a possible history outcome

alexkusu SG

U have a point. There is a secret aethist in all of us Laughing

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