Some queries

last SG · 2004-07-10T23:39:04+00:00

Fireice...me kenna dump...damn sianz.... anyway back to topic... some churches seem damn strict on couples being of the same religion... and with masturba...

SingaporeMacross SG

If you are struggling with sexual sins, praying more often will help you.

Icemoon SG

Good to who? Rolling Eyes

You can't ignore the question of God's treatment of people in the OT. If the OT sends "shivers down your spine", then isn't God a vengeful God?

Do you think the generations between Moses and Jesus are the guinea pigs? I hear people saying that "God gave them the Law to show their ..." (sorry can't remember the exact phrase).

Icemoon SG

That's a mistake. Jesus said He came not to replace, but to fulfill the Law?

And it is important to differentiate laws or commandments binding only to the Jews and others binding to everyone. When you say overidden, more likely they're not binding to gentiles, like the Jewish dietary and circumcision laws.

We have the benefit of hindsight. That's why we can happily say God gives us new covenant. But what about the generations between Moses and Jesus?

Is the OT clear on the fact that there is going to be a new covenant? Everywhere you read, you have the impression that the laws/commandments in the OT are eternal.

Of course this brings us to my previous question. Are these people guinea pigs?

worried99 SG

I told u my perspective changed when I read the NT. He is no longer a vengeful GOD.

I do not know whether they are the guinea pigs or not. If I am not wrong, God gave his pple the laws becoz they asked for it (also forgotten where I read in the bible). But men of coz could not keep those laws. That's why there is a need for his Son to establish a 2nd convenant with him on behalf of all of us who were sinners.

worried99 SG

I think I have also read in the bible abt Jesus came not to replace, but to fulfill the law. But bear in mind, the Son of GOD also knew he has to die from the start, and his death was to complete what is to be given undeservely (grace) to us, the sinners. If Jesus really come to 'fulfill' (enforce) the laws, he would not have saved the woman's life from stoning would he? If he really come to 'fulfill' the laws, he would not have criticized the Pharisees who were self-righteous and thought they knew everything abt the laws.

Gentiles and Jews alike, the bible says those who believed in the Lord would be saved. Is there really a need to segregate between Jews and Gentiles? I have read a bible commentary which says that some early christians (Jews) tried to enforce Jewish customs on Gentiles and they were wrong in doing that. The bible also says whether u are circumcized or not, it is not as important as believing in the lord.

It is said in the bible that Jesus came to established a new convenant in place of the first (laws) (sorry I have forgotten which verse). In the OT, The prophet Isiah prophesized abt the Messiah coming to bear man's sins. It was also mentioned that he would be beaten for our transgressions.

I think u do have some bible knowledge, and in fact better than me who has just began to start reading the bible seriously. I believed if u read more closely, it is clear that Jesus came to establish a new convenant for man with his father so that all of us can be saved. If the Lord has not established the new convenant, none of us could get saved as it is impossible for us to keep all the commandments.

There is also another good discussion board: stephentong.org
where u can participate in such discussions (I am not affiliated to them, just find that the person-charge Elder Yong would be in a better position to answer ur questions)

worried99 SG

quoted from Jeremiah chapter 31: “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:”

worried99 SG

By calling this covenant `new,’ he has made the first one obsolete…. He sets aside the first to establish the second (Heb. 8:13; 10:9).

worried99 SG

Old Covenant:
Placed upon stone
Based on the law
Must be taught
Legal relationship with GOD

New Covenant:
Placed upon people's heart
Based on desire to love and serve God
known by all
Personal relationship with GOD

(taken from life application bible KJV - Old and new convenants compared)

worried99 SG

http://christianteens.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=christianteens&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tftrust.u-net.com%2Ftestimony14.html

Good link Very Happy

stupidissmart SG

if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5-29-30

if you read properly, it's just telling the importance of dealing with sin.. even with extreme measures..

if you think cutting it off or gorging your eyes out solves the problem.. please do so.. but i think the problem is much more than that..

Okie, I read again... strange... literally reading the text, u can still come to the conclusion tat if your little brother has commit a sin, u have to cut it off. Tis is so as to prevent your whole body to be cast in hell and suffer. It says sin is so unforgivable tat u have to main yourself to be forgiven.

Of course I do not believe cutting off a part of the body can help u in anything except causing more pain to society. However did I say tat statement ? It is jesus himself isn't it ? I am interpreting the statement.

stupidissmart SG

I told u my perspective changed when I read the NT. He is no longer a vengeful GOD.

U do not believe in the OT ? U can pick and choose the relevant chapters u like to believe, buffet style ? U tink god change itself for the better during the times ? Then how can god be perfect, omnipotent, all-knowing etc ? In case u do not know, u should be praying to god, not to jesus. If u do not believe in any part of all the 66 books, then u should consider whether u should continue to be in tis religion or not. Why ? It is because the scrioture r "god inspired" and written by a perfect all-knowing god. If it turn out u do not believe in a few of the practices, then it just means the whole scripture is just man made, and man made errors. If tat is the case then then is nothing holy or divine in the scripture anymore. Then why should u believe in writing written by people 2000 years ago ?

stupidissmart SG

I think u do have some bible knowledge, and in fact better than me who has just began to start reading the bible seriously. I believed if u read more closely, it is clear that Jesus came to establish a new convenant for man with his father so that all of us can be saved. If the Lord has not established the new convenant, none of us could get saved as it is impossible for us to keep all the commandments.

As I said before, do they need version 2 to replace version 1 ? I thought there should be unity for scriptures, not a totally different view on the same issue. If u find the teaching in version 2 different to version 1, then it just means u have spotted a biblical contradiction. And from your tone, u suggested tat the people from moses to jesus time deserves the treatment of being stoned to death and cutting off their hand.

Just a question. Since u find so many contadictions, why don't u find it more logical to reject everything than to force yourself to accept a few tat u feel seems to be more right ? In case u do not know, u have deviate from the true christian religion, but have started your own religion by choosing the part u feel like believing. U might as well choose part of scriptures from the buddhist or taoist to complement the ones from NT while u r at it.

stupidissmart SG

BTW maybe u can try to read the reply by fandango or the suppose inerrancy of the scriptures.

worried99 SG

Stupidissmart, as I have told u before, the OT is good as it tells you abt the laws. Nobody is rejecting the OT. But what Jesus came to establish was to do away with those laws as it was impossible to keep all of them due to our sinful nature. The old laws actually make me appreciate what I received in the new covenant.

Christians believed in one Triune God (GOD/Jesus/Holy Ghost); Jesus is GOD, GOD is Jesus. Very hard to explain to u this concept. Mebbe u try looking up while u surf?

When I was in sec sch, I also found parts of the bible contraditary. However, when I read closely now, I found it actually complement each other. Like the old laws and the concept of grace, without the laws there would not be grace; the laws made u understand why grace was given to people so that u can be saved.

worried99 SG

Idea

worried99 SG

U are right to have doubts in the bible as I have last time. When u do not have doubts u will not want to read more and find out abt the truth. I once rejected HIM before as I feel everything is wrong, but somehow I was drawn back to him. Very hard to express in words, but GOD works his own mysterious ways. It may be cliche but I actually find more peace in my heart now that my doubts are settled.

As I have said in my earlier post, nobody rejects the OT. We do not read parts of the bible selectively, but rather, find reasons and links between what was said in the books. What was mentioned in the NT actually complements and complete the OT. That's why I can tell u there is no contradiction in the bible (no erranency) Also, the bible was not completed in just one period but it's being done over a period of time. There is no version 1 or 2 as what u have said. We only believed in one completed bible which is the inspired word from GOD.

http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/default.asp
is a good link to clear ur doubts. Another way is to attend a church which teaches the word closely from the bible.

Choosing buddhist or taoist scriptures to complement the bible? No...this would not be the right thing to do.

chunyong SG

dats own privacy, why should they let the church know, i got a personal view that every church is a different religion in itself although they all belong to the same one religion.

stupidissmart SG

Now don't u think something is funny here... first they tell u they made these laws then they say to do away with it all. Doesn't wat he do later contradict his actions before ? Why doesn't he just tell us the new laws in the first place ? Why make so many people suffer for so much time before telling them it is futile to follow the laws he set himself ? Wat is the rationale for doing tat ?

Christians believed in one Triune God (GOD/Jesus/Holy Ghost); Jesus is GOD, GOD is Jesus. Very hard to explain to u this concept. Mebbe u try looking up while u surf?

The trinity heh. Tat is something very contradictory among here too since they suggest god is one, then suggest it actually meant multiple objects (+holy spirits) then they say jesus is the son of god, which make it strange since no one can be a son of himself. Jesus is sacrfice because god want it to be so. So how can god sarifice god because god want it to be so ? When jesus is baptised , god is pleased of jesus actions. How can god be pleased of his own action to commemorate god himself ? Can't u see throughout NT they implied both god and jesus r different.

When I was in sec sch, I also found parts of the bible contraditary. However, when I read closely now, I found it actually complement each other. Like the old laws and the concept of grace, without the laws there would not be grace; the laws made u understand why grace was given to people so that u can be saved.

Lets simplify the scenario. Someone name god throw u into a dungeon tat is not possible for men to live well. After many years, they set u into a slightly better dungeon. So when u see an upgrade u actually praise god for showing grace ? Instead of condemning his action for giving darkness to men for many centuries by irresponsible and strict laws, u actually priase him for correction ? From my viewpoint, it just means tat he realise he made a mistake and try to rectify it. Wat perfectness can tat be ? People living centuries ago r also human, so we left use them as examples or guinea pigs for the later people ?

Everything is still wrong. his mysterious way is probably by using a girl... Rolling Eyes Wat doubt have been settled

As I have said in my earlier post, nobody rejects the OT. We do not read parts of the bible selectively, but rather, find reasons and links between what was said in the books. What was mentioned in the NT actually complements and complete the OT. That's why I can tell u there is no contradiction in the bible (no erranency) Also, the bible was not completed in just one period but it's being done over a period of time. There is no version 1 or 2 as what u have said. We only believed in one completed bible which is the inspired word from GOD.

Is it ? it complement ? How ? I thought u yourself give some example of conflict between the 2 ? OT says a woman who commit adultery has to be stoned while the NT says we do not have to. Isn't tat a conflict here ?
u yourself even write tis

Isn't tat a difference of its own ?

By calling this covenant `new,' he has made the first one obsolete.... He sets aside the first to establish the second (Heb. 8:13; 10:9).

The second one just make OT "obsolete" isn't it ? I thought u already say they r obsolete thus irrelevant, and tat makes everythign under it not to be taken seriously. Does tis complement each other ? Nope ! From tat statement, it is meant to be a replacement ! OT tells u u must follow the rules seriously without question and without it possible of being changed. Now tis statement tell u to forget about everything written on it. How can tis ever be complementary ?

stupidissmart SG

I have posted many conflicts of bible before. If u feel tat it is completed, then read tis and explains to me

Shall we kill ?

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

Should we tell lies?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

from
http://ffrf.org/lfif/?t=contra.txt

NeonTetra SG

When people study the Bible as if it is a Biology text and starts placing them in tables for comparison and not pondering over the whole picture, the main aim is to shoot the Bible of its credibility and perhaps give a hooray "They have got lopp holes..haha"

Well, the Bible is studied by several people and they call it the greatest Book with greatest degree of accuracy and by quoting some Verses vs. Verses thingy..one thinks God is jus being forgetful?

Everything revealed in Scriptures are infallible(not the Pope) and inerrant (not the Pope). The reason why it seems full of errors because the life of the one reading it contains error. The Bible talks about the Word of God being a mirror...when we see ourselves as being dirty in the mirror...some of us choose to have a bath..while some say ..no la...the mirror is unpolished and dirty in the first place.

"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does."

-James 1:22-25

The whole context of the Bible talks about a God, one who is the only true and living. The God here althoughs seemed full of wrath and demanding in the Old Testament do still have a caring and merciful heart. God spared the Egyptians' first born(those who obey His command to smear the lamb's blood on their doorposts during Passover) and He did not simply wipe out mankind like we wipe our dirty tables. In all of His doings, even when it comes to severe Judgments, God do remember mercy.

His primary job is not to exterminate mankind the moment they sin and turn from Him. His wraths and judgments are threats to make people repent. Before every time He sends His punishment....He will send a prophet to speak His words and plead with nthe people to repent. No fire come from heaven without prior warnings. Read for urself.

God will never change. yes...He is same yesterday, today and evermore. But that doesnt mean He is a piece of rock. His holiness, truth and righteous standards and love for justice NEVER change. But He changes His plans at times so that people will come to repentance...He wants as few people dead as much as possible.

So would we prefer Him to NOT CHANGE? even when we tidy up out messed up lives ....His wrath still comes anyway??? Sorry...God is not mad.

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