SAF MArtial Arts Bullshit

MrFugue SG

Martial Arts? News reported that 3 NS guys who went to malaysia on a holiday got threatened and then surrendered to the people who threatened them.

Laughing

MrFugue SG

I have seen people who could run up against a wall and execute a back-kick when being cornered.Does SAF teach these kind of martial arts?

Laughing

lwflee SG

You state the obvious - of course time is needed in order to be proficient. That applies to almost anything.

But that is besides the point. The problem here is that the SAF appears to still be teaching nonsense to its soldiers, even though there was a recent revamp of its UC system!

An argument may be made that more realistic techniques and more realistic training will be incorporated in later stages, but then that begs the question: "Why teach nonsense in the first place?"

Everyone knows that the SAF has neither the time, money nor inclination to invest in its soldiers UC skills. Yet, by wasting time teaching such nonsense as inside-outside-forearm-block (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA) to its soldiers, the SAF is wasting its money and breeding bad habits. Has any of these intructors ever tried to actually block a punch with the aforementioned nonsense? Has it worked - at least occasionally? I KNOW the double forearm block taught in boxing works. But that is not taught? Instead the tell those guys to intercept a punch using the INside-outside. etc etc !!! Rolf!

HIA HIA HIA!!! --> that is the sum of BCCT.

|-|05| SG

Another funny thing istheir bodies and usually square to the front and not sideways which will provide the smallest target and also hide your movements abit.

Shotgun SG

Aiya, BCCT is a introductory nonsensical course meant to give recruits confidence lar. They teach recruit the "jab" but dun even teach the body mechanics behind it. Just how to mimic the action...

They should have focused more on how to use the sar-21 or m-16 to combat effectively rather than this tkd-mix-kickboxing block kicks. Chances are, if u get into a situation where u have to use fists or kicks, u will have a cumbersome sar-21 swinging around u.

Alternatively, teach them how to quickly kill someone with a combat knife or bayonet. Rather than how to "block" or dis-arm someone with a knife.

kopikid SG

Laughing

side ways ppl can perform a take down on u easier

n square to the front u can avoid being takedown by a leg shot easier

my 2 cents

point SG

Originally posted by lwflee:
I was surfing the net when I came across this steaming pile of crap. Worse, the title says "BCCT". I had thought that SAF unarmed combat training has moved on since its UC days, but apparently not.

Katas, One step sparrings, selfdefence against knives, board breakings, and general all round BULLSHIDO.

These guys have not been taught to fight. What they have been taught is ballroom dancing in camouflage fatigues.

Without further ado, I present [b]SAF BULLSHIDO - THE NEXT EVOLUTION

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g74_0buoeG0&search=SAF

I fear the SAF is beyond help now. Anyone care to tell me that the SAF takes training seriously?

Edit: Looks like 4 SIR.

Here is the depth of the problem:

http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=zhong_cheung

People are passing the course thinking they are now proficient in unarmed combat. That is, however, clearly far from the truth. As i said in an earlier post, the first time I had to spar with boxing gloves on in my Uni MA class, I was hit squarely in the eye. Why? Because I did not recognise the virtue of keeping your hands up. Because I was not taught the proper way to block a punch.

The SAF really really needs to be given a kick up its arse. This sort of shoddy training reflects very badly on the SAF as a whole. If the SAF cannot be bothered to train its soldiers properly in this instance, I think it is reasonable to conclude that the SAF does not train its soldiers properly period. [/b]

Maybe this apply for you, but my buddy was attacked and he instinctly blocked and punched the guy who ended with a bloody nose. And sweetie, it was no boxing but happened on the street.

So stop blaming the course, it is probably you trained lightly instead of like us, trained harshly. And if they train you harshly, you go and whine about it to your parents who then complain to the MPs.

You blame SAF? I blame the new era of protected soldiers. People like you who blame everything else but yourself. Keep your arms up, and if you get kick into your ribs, you start blaming why they train you to keep your arms UP?

Laughing

point SG

Alright, now if they raise the NS period to 5 years, how about that? You will have many valued courses and you will be a very proficient SOLDIER. Are you WILLING?

However, we are speaking of civilian soldiers here, not PROFESSIONAL soldiers. And you keep blaming SAF?

And it is obvious you do not know self-defense. You do not commit a double block in real. It works in boxing because they do not have to worry about grappling and kicking.

Since this show how shallow is your proficiency in fighting, I believe you should leave it to those who KNOW what self-defense is all about. YOU KNOW NOTHING! BTW, a block is not the same as a parry.

point SG

I do not think he is looking down. But he is sharing a very genuine situation in Singapore. Who would want to get their career compromised by "soldiers" who will complain at a slightest injury? A nosebleed? They are complaining about FOOD, BED, REST......

What nosebleed? LOL

Oh yes, I am looking down on the present NSFs and you should know why by now.

kimuraguy SG

funny how our armed forces teach a whole lot of crap to our poor soldiers.
The few factors i find that why our soldiers learn crap is

One factor i guess the the budget they set aside for unarmed combat training is small.

Second factor is i guess they emphasize too much on the gun. Not handy when you become a prisoner of war.

Third. The people running the department do not specialize in the martial arts thus having limited knowledge.

Fourth. The man up there makes the decision, even if you ground men do not find the martial arts useful.

Lastly. Marketing. They choose martial arts that are marketed well. That doesn't prove that the martial art is effective.

Think about it, what martial art tournamnent is the closest you will ever get to a real fight. the answer MIXED MARTIAL ARTS or VALE TUDO or ULTIMATE FIGHTING.

So what this crap about learning other martial arts when mixed martial arts is the way to go.

If other arts were so effective then how come you never get a Wing Chun, Tae kwon Do or even a Krav Maga guy winning a fight.

Instead you get a Mixed Martial Arts guy who cross trains and win...........

So i conclude that mixed martial arts is the combat are of the future.

Shotgun SG

see what i mean by they don't teach enough? If u get kicked in the ribs cos u keep ur arms up, it means u are standing too "square" to ur opponent. Always the side, and arms up. Never present ur shoulders square to the opponent. Also, unless u are up against a very well trained martial arts exponent, kicks are the easiest to avoid or negate. Its the punches, holds, and "wrestling" thats hard to avoid.

Ever watched saving private ryan? The tussel between the GI and german troop. What was involved? A lot of kicking and punching? No. Its down and dirty ground fighting, chokes, stabbing of eyes, and manuevering on the ground.

Ur friend is lucky not to have met anyone more well trained that he is. Can the same be said about foreign militaries and how they train their troops in close combat?

insouciant SG

Guys, at the end of the day, we need to compare apples with apples. We can't compare our martial arts training with professional arms like the US Marine Corps, Korean army, etc. We are a conscript army, and most of us serve 2 years (or old birls like me) 2.5 years. Hardly enough time to train up in unarm combat effectively.

Heck, I trained in TKD for 10 years (3 - 5 times a week), and still think I have a long way to go (altho I stopped a while ago) when you talk about kill or be killed situations.

Maybe more realistic is we ask, what about the other conscript armys, what do they train, and are they really that good as well? Anyone know what the Swiss do and how good they are at it?

lwflee SG

A lot of people keep trying to justify the nonsense taught to soldiers on the basis that there is a lack of time.

As I noted above, that is a very flawed argument. It is precisely because there is a lack of time that the SAF needs to be given a boot up its arse. Let's say, for eg, that the SAF UC package consists of 16 * 2 hr lessons (It is more in reality - I think).

Take away the katas, take away the wrist locks/takedowns, take away the asinine emphasis of how loud soldiers can holler, and you will have much more time to concentrate on what works.

The SAF has a great advantage here in that its soldiers have a reasonable level of fitness and flexibility. Yet, imo, the average student who have trained in a civvy mma gym for the same period of time would slaughter the average UC graduate. Why? The answer is that the civvy gyms employ superior training methods.

insouciant SG

No one is disputing it could be better.

But then a lot of things could be better. SAR21, Ultimax, more time on the range to improve shooting, better uniforms, better fullpacks, better radios, less worries about mommy complaining why her son got nosebleed.. Laughing and a whole lot of other stuff.

I personally think it's pretty useless trying to teach a guy how to execute a proper side kick in plain fatigues when in war he'll probably be wearing SBO helmet, with water bottles, magazines and all sorts of things that will get in his way..

But, at the end of the day, better some training than no training at all.

As for al the shouting, it's to teach the guys to build up aggression, get their blood pumping, and hopefully channel it at their enemy. Smile

NoRiceBoys SG

Hi

I used to be a UC instructor during my army days (loooong ago).

I fully agree with you that what's taught in UC class is mostly bullshit. Most of the stuff will never work in real life.

There were 2 directives, or priorities in why soldiers are trained in UC, and this is what instructers had to keep in mind.

First and foremost, the most important reason why soldiers train in UC is to help develop aggression and a fighting spirit in them. The ability and desire to want to close with the enemy. After all, if you have your rifle and a bayonet, why the hell will you want to fight empty hand.

The second, and less important goal, is to learn how to fight hand-to-hand.

The only things I found workable in the UC syllabus was the reaping throw (osoto-gari in judo?) and perhaps the hip throw.

Selection for instructors was mostly done from people who studied TKD. And we all know how good TKD is for actual fighting (its useless in case you're wondering). Even I as an instructor cannot make it work for myself, I don't want to talk about the students.

I'm sure the korean TKD people can probably kick some butt, but I've got a black belt in TKD and I can't kick my way out of a 7-11 full of old grannies to save my butt. It just doesn't work for me. My training consisted of 98% punching/kicking the air, doing katas and other silly 3-step sparring drills that had little resemblance to real life, and 2% sparring.

I have several theories on why this bullshit continues to be taught in the SAF.

1) The govt. does not want to train all male citizens in a skill that can really work to maim, kill or hurt. The majority of us become civilians after our time in service. If all of us are trained killers, we're going to have a social problem on our hands.

2) The people in charge of this don't know any better. The regulars I knew who ran the show during my time were all bozo deadbeat losers anyway. They were good in TKD, but I don't think many of them has ever been in a street fight, not to mention in a kill or get killed situation. Those that do may not have the gumption to go the way to see things change, or are not in the position to effect this change.

3) To train people to be effective in a fight, you're going to need to let them fight full contact regularly, or at least train effective drills over and over and over. It's as simple as that. If you let people go at it, you're going to get injuries. And the mamas and papas don't want to see boy boy going home with a black eye or a broken nose do they? And I'm not talking about no punching to the head, no kneeing to the groin bullshit. I mean everything goes, but with guards and protective gear of course (perhaps to the exclusion of eye jabs). And we know how SAF feels about injuries and accidents.

4) It's going to cost a lot of money to buy gloves for every soldier, mouth pieces, head guards, shin guards, belly guards and groin cups. Not to mention you'll need a lot of trained instructors to supervise the full contact sparring sessions.

Any kind of "martial art" that is not tried on a trained, fully resisting opponent in a full-contact, anything goes situation just isn't going to work squat in the streets. That is why I read in another thread about someone who learned TKD? but will just "anyhow swing" in a real street brawl. This is because what you're learning is not realistic or applicable to real life.

Let me just take boxing for example. Boxing is actually a highly scientific art. A good boxer will beat an "anyhow swing" untrained person any time. A seasoned boxer's head is hard to hit, because first, he covers up, his chin is down so you can't knock him out easily, and he's always moving his head. Even when he's punching, his punching arm is covering his head, and you can't hook him easily. He's trained to always keep his hands up, and has good reflexes. He is also used to taking shots to the head and body. He's going to be able to beat most of the untrained people out there in a fight. Most importantly, his punches are going to pack knockout power.

Full contact sparring teaches you two things.

First, it teaches you to be down to earth, and forget about all your fancy hollywood moves you see in the movies or you're going to get your butt kicked. It may work on an untrained person, or your training partner who's not very good at fighting, but it sure isn't going to work on someone who's good at stand-up fighting.

Second it teaches you the vital timing to make your tools (punches, elbows, knees, kicks, chops, palms, etc.) work for you. Third, it gets you used to getting hit.

The third point is very important. If you're training and living in a make belief world, and in a real fight you get socked in the head a couple of times, you're not going to be able to continue unless you can take a hit and go on.

I know this is politically incorrect, but all the akido and TKD guys (I was one of them in the past!) if they ever get into the unfortunate experience of landing themselves in a place where they have to defend themselves are going to wake up to a really shocking truth. I've been in a fight before, so I know what it's like. Your opponent is definitely not going to stick his hand out for you to grab.

Any fighting art that has full-contact, uncorporative sparring as 90% or even 100% as its core curriculum is going to beat everything else that is done with a compliant partner. These are the arts that will really work. Kyukoshin karate, muay thai, boxing, BJJ, shan shou, etc. Add to that some dirty street fighting techniques and practical weapon counters, and you're good to go.

I spent a long time finding out what works and what doesn't. My advice to fellow martial artists interested in real self defense is this:

Don't waste time arguing with people on a forum. Put on some boxing gloves, mouth piece, groin cup, some body protection if you like, shin guards, and invite people from other martial arts for a friendly full-contact sparring session and find out for yourselves. You'll find out very quickly if your "art" works, or is just pure bullshido.

If you're doing it because of excercise, beauty, etc. its fine, but if you're doing it for self defense, you've got to test it out before you need to use it.

lwflee SG

Hey, thanks for the post. Nice to know that at least some instructors realise the silliness of what they are teaching.

I agree with you, esp the part about the importance of sparring. The problem as I see it is that if you do not get used to having someone come at you aggressively, your instinctive reaction is to cover up, turn your back. And we all know how dangerous that is! In fact, I did that too! Until I was told to use jabs, block and move.

I think that somesort of sparring can be incorporated into the cirriculum cheaply. If the aim is aggression, then slap on some boxing gloves and head gear (with cage) and then let them go at it. No kicking, no kneeing, no biting etc. Or, slap on some boxing gloves and let the trainees go wild at a pad for 2/3mins. Only those able to keep up the pressure and their composure for the full 2/3mins ought to pass.

NoRiceBoys SG

NewAge,
I don't mean to be offensive, but that is total bullshit. I spent years of my life practicing katas and its a total waste of time. Find out for yourself if this is true, get someone good at standup fighting and see if your katas can be adapted to work for you in a dynamic situation.

If you want to learn real "katas" or drills, it must always be against a partner. Watch some UFC or Muay Thai videos, see how the fighters react and counter to various moves (pushing kick, thigh kick, punch, etc.).

You know they work because they've been used in a real fight, then develop drills around these moves. Drill them slowly with a partner, then faster and faster, then with full power, then without a set pattern so you don't know when its coming. Only when it works then, will it work for you in a real situation.

Training static katas is bullshit, and a waste of time. This is why we orientals get overtaken by the ang mohs, because the ang mohs (the good ones anyway) test out what works and what doesn't, and throws out anything that doesn't work. And they bother to test it out in a realistic situation - in the UFC cage of Pride ring.

This is also why the Gracies are great. They cross train with other martial artists, and have sparring matches with other martial arts, so they get to find out what works and what doesn't against fully resisting opponents. They don't operate on theory, or what they "think" will work. They test it out in the real world to find out! Plus they have lots of street fighting experience.

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