does our ladies really understand about NS?

chikopek SG

totally agree. should makes them have an experiences so that they will understand how ns is like

CKtalon SG

SAF's goal is to deter and to have a quick and decisive victory when there's a need..SAF is doing a great job deterring, but we shouldn't be proud of this..
In the case of what is happening now, men seem to want females to respect them as they will be protecting the country when war comes but I do not feel they can fight hence shouldn't deserve the pride.

I have made several observations which have led me to think so..For most of the things I raise, I have gone through them and hence felt how useless this training was..although yes it was xiong and I dun want to go through it again

Pride? Glory? Honour? can eat? Serve and fark off?
That's the mentality of most NSFs...even officers, specs
NSFs (except the enlightened few) do not believe in SAF..just striving to ORD

NSmen is the bulk of our force..how many people here find reservist a waste of time? how many treat the training seriously? how many are really operationally ready? Sure

there's one battalion who had one of the best ATEC scores...remarkable for a NS unit..
but 1? 2? U are sending out only 1 battalion to fight?

Another thing about ATEC..Is it 'real' in the sense?
Do casualties, dead people really go out of action after a certain scenario or do they mysteriously revive after every exercise? With such a mentality that people revive, get

cured..it seems like we have an invincible army..How true is that?
Of course, we need to prevent people who want to chao keng..1st day die, can shake leg for the rest of ATEC..but in a real situation, that's not the case
I think u can imagine?
When evacuating with casualties during exercises, do u run 2-3km back to the actual CCP..or just simulate running a few hundred metres and then followed by the order of

exercise cut? Of course I know it's very xiong doing such exercises..but in war, what makes u think that while retrograding, u won't be within enemy fire?
How realistic is ATEC? Bullets flying pass your helmet, hitting your buddy's head, blowing it up..Still rational? Still willing to think logically and think of the overall situation?
And how many casualties will render a platoon ineffective? 3..just 3 and a platoon can start retreating (at a slowed down pace)

Too talk about realistic training, there's Section/platoon/coy live firing?
Such a well controlled exercise and with the route so well planned and every cover so well placed for u doesn't seem very realistic to me..
The attack looks great when fighting dummy targets, everyone moves wonderfully doing leap and bounds..wow..
All live firing exercises are conducted under very controlled conditions..coz of safety regulations (which are needed), but the realistic value drops too much...
Recent 'paintball' like equipment gives me better hope now..

There are certain exercises which certain units do more realistic stuff(Commando's Ex Fireball with live rounds or something like that, or certain SOF equipment that shoots

something similar like paintball but better)..but then it's only those few..Their Operations aren't exactly what the main bulk of the Army is.

For support units like Artillery, I do feel they are more useful in the Army, at least they can do damage at without having heavy casualties..but if I'm not wrong there's

equipment that can analyse the trajectory, speed and stuff to locate where the arty guns are located? Arty bombardment back on ur arty guns isn't a good thing..(but

again..maybe the oppressor doesn't have that type of technology..)

For maneuver arms (Armour), I do not have much to comment..It could probably the only saving point of the Army..

Regulars? I believe most people have heard/experienced how farked up regulars can be..there are of course the enlightened few as usual, but they won't be the main bulk of

our fighting forces

NS is great fun which lets u try things u may never do..but without doing them, would ur life really be any lesser? If so, how much? See the girls...
Sure, confidence gets boosted and stuff..again how many people in NS really get to go through certain jobs? Support/Admin/Logistics staff are important, but in the process,

how many of them would benefit from NS? Learning how to type? learning how to manage human relations? learning how to wayang?
It's not necessary to learn all these in NS. U can learn in those in your future jobs too

Telling me about how united ur unit is, how much pride u have in ur unit is meaningless..because this is on the incapabilities of the SAF mainly the Army
That's one of the few advantages NS gives, but when ur unit is required to fight a war, I have doubts how effective or how much

There may be some untruths here, which you can raise it against me and if I do not have anything to refute back, I will gladly accept it..

kopiosatu SG

yes and our enemies are SOOOOOO well trained Rolling Eyes

CKtalon SG

It doesn't need to be well trained to cause damage.

They can lose hundreds of thousands of lives, while because we are well trained, we only lose thousands of lives.

The post war impact will cause Singapore to crumble since the people fighting are day to day engineers, teachers, odd-job workers, blue-collar workers, etc, so we still lose the war although we won the battle

deathscythe99 SG

Rolling Eyes

kopiosatu SG

Frankly speaking your arguments holds no water to me.

I for one can't be bothered to argue with people like you because you have already chosen what you want to hear and you have formed your own opinion.

Just like you writing a whole lot of theories which I don't believe in.

So there's no point arguing the good or bad points of the SAF/NS when everyone has their individual views already etched into their minds. Either you're for it or you're against it.

wocc SG

again i am very bemused to say the least about the ladies issue again. guys do not really understand ns and perpetuate that impression that saf cannot fight and will lose a war. if u have the opportunity to see for yourself the type of arsenal that our neighbours have, you would be confident that we will win.

artillery rounds might land in singapore. but chances are that our airforce will take them out much sooner then they can fire. thats why artillery has develop the primus and the shoot and scoot doctrine.

many girls although whiny are made of tougher material than u really know. they are not stronger physically but psychologically they are there. it just takes the event for them to show it.

what makes you think that girls have not done route march and gone for field camps that you have gone through. the weight that they carry is the same as most guys, but their physical size is so much smaller than you yet they walkt he same distance. for an average guy, he weighs 70kg but the full gear is just around 18 kg. a lady weighs 40-55kg and carries the same weight.

NS being not compulsory for ladies is not a cause to complain. if they do not understand is it because guys perpetuate the impression that it is a walk in the park. how many guys think it is a waste of time? why should ladies think otherwise and appreciate if their friends come out every weekend complaining that they are slaves.

truely if ladies were to understand and appreciate all these, its also part of the average joe's job to communicate that to them. the fact that someone who has gone through ns is not confident of our fighting capabilities says a lot about the person and his attitude and knowledge of the organisation.

its time to stop this guy vs gal war and that girls do not understand or appreciate your precious time spent in the army. what do you really want from the girls? kowtowing and bestowing of sexual favours to feed your egos? really society has its division of labours and roles. just accept it.

renren333 SG

to wocc,

u sai<>

u are not comparing like with like. Division of labour is not about males serving NS, while females continue with their education or enter the work force. True divison of labout is when females are conscripted to do admin work for 2 years, while males handle the tougher combat vocations.

zheshi SG

Even the so call male counterparts are half-hearted about NS... how u expect the female to fully understand? All along i believe female are the more stronger in term of mindset like compare to male...most male are just whinner or always grumbing..about this and that..

dragg SG

there is no denying that women are mentally stronger than men.

dumbdumb! SG

talk is cheap ba.

Hellraiza SG

wah imagine if ALL the nsfs on strike for one day....how arh? eeh eh very feasible idea leh. mindef will CHUI man...and i cant even begin to imagine if they will get charged, and how. Laughing

i suggest let ALL the girls go for one month NS..go through the same modules eg field camp, soc... ladies always say guys only like to talk about their army days, when they go through the same thing i'd like to see them try to shut up about it!

oxford mushroom SG

I am in favour of national service for all Singaporeans, male and female. Everyone should serve the 2 years (I did 2.5 years my time) and the 13-year reservist cycles. Women will be deployed mainly to public hospitals and trained as assistant nurses; the rest to the police force and civil defence force. We leave the option open for some to go into the army but that should remain a minority.

Israel has a similar system of compulsory national service for all...we should follow.

huaiwei SG

I bet you are not a geography student? Very Happy

Neither do I suppose you understood the concept of "total defence", in particular the aspect of psychological defence. If anything, you display the very mindset the psychological aspect of national defence will be trying to correct. Perhaps it dosent work for you, but there is nothing to say it dosent work for others.

I completed my NS a few years ago, and no, I dont think I want to consider going through it again. Like most of my peers, I was looking forward to ORD as well. That said, you dont find me going round saying NS was a complete waste of time in every sense of the word. And for that matter, please do note that not everyone who declares SAF as a waste of time is neccesarily saying it based on the same factors. Some, like yourself, thinks defending a small country like Singapore is physically impossible. Others may think its a waste of time because of manpower and training issues.

You feel Singaporeans will go into a panicky frenzy when an arty shell explodes here. Well...that shell isnt going to come without any warning, so do you think Singapores will need that long to freak out? Instead, I am much more worried about the effects of an unexpected terrorist attack.

I am quite amused when you question the operational readiness of our reservists. I do wonder if you are one yourself, because if so, your impression does happen to be a tiny minority. Unfortunately, people seem to be consumed by talks of the inefficienty of our NSF guys, and presume the NSmen are in a worse state of affairs. Well...quite the opposite actually.

Finally, you make plenty of assumptions on expected social responses to a military attack. But until a war actually breaks out, I must point out its almost impossible to make such predictions. As some have pointed out, in times of war when retreat is not an option, and the realisation that the protection of loved ones, and all we hold dear rests solely on us and no one else starts to sink in, who knows how many will throw up their hands in despair, and who will be galvanised to take up arms and fight to the last?

Sometimes, the choice isnt even given to you.

Whatever the case, I dont expect you to suddenly change your stance overnight. I would just hope that you would spend a little time reflecting on what you presume as the definitive thruth, and considering adopting a more eclectic viewpoint before settling back to whatever position you happen to be comfortable in.

lwflee SG

Why is it not a cause for complaint? It seems really unfair and illogical to me. Like you said, many girls are very tough, so why not make them serve NS? At most, you can make them nurses, instructors or clerks. These vocations require more mental toughness than physical toughness. Since many ladies are very tough psychologically, it would appear logical that these positions be filled by them.

What? The fact is that some comments made by them have given the impression that many of them do not appreciate the sarcrifices we have made. Like i said, they need to shut the f*** up and let us be.

And what has this got to do with division of labour in society? Because we are male, we should be compelled to give up two long f****** years of our life? Because we are male we should be tied to this country through reserve service? And the females, they - uh - get ahead in the job market?

Crap. Its high time the ladies get what they have been clamouring for: Gender Equality. Well, ladies, with equal rights come equal burdens. How about you ladies start shouldering some of the burden?

In the mean time, shut up.

editted by mod: expletives, expletives...

wocc SG

seriously guys dont appreciate this NS thing at all so why should girls. if u really want people to understand project the right image and not complain that it is a waste of time. the impression is an image perpertrated by guys.

it is not true that girls get ahead in the jobs market by reason of their non NS liability. in fact, it is still true that woman who are doing the same jobs are paid much lower than man in the job market as employers prefer to promote man over woman because they are the ones who would take childcare leave and maternity leave and so on. this is soemthing that girls have to accept. they may start work earlier but seriously they do not earn more.

division of labour does not truely mean that all girls become nurses or clerks doing admin work. just like not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers, neither are all girls meant to be nurses. to compare our situation with the israelis is a bit uncalled for. you must see beyond that two years that you are serving to that of the economy of the nation. we can conscript the girls into army for an equivalent two years. it might damage our economy, you might have to halve your current NS allowance. the motivation of concripting girls should not be just to even the playing fields to satisfy your albeit senseless call for equality there must be a real need for it as the cost is tremendous. singapore would have to double its defence budget. are u willing to suffer cuts in the areas of education and healthcare?

then what about a month in bmt just for the experience? three months is insufficient to train a soldier properly. if we just put them through army for a month, what is your objective? to make them talk about army more? or to show them what you guys go through? there must be a proper aim and objectives to be achieve you want to carry out such a plan.

i never said that woman should not appreciate NS or they cant appreciate it. however to be appreciated by others, there is a clear need for you guys to appreciate it. true two years is a long time. but its for u to make it a positive experience.

and its says a lot about u if you have to resort to expletives to get your point across.

renren333 SG

Originally posted by wocc:
division of labour does not truely mean that all girls become nurses or clerks doing admin work. just like not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers, neither are all girls meant to be nurses. to compare our situation with the israelis is a bit uncalled for. you must see beyond that two years that you are serving to that of the economy of the nation. [/b]

Then pray tell, what does YOUR concept of division of labour entail?

You rejected my concept, did not offer an alternative, and flitted to another point made by another person.

Come on, face the argument head-on like a MAN. Oops you are "wocc", which I assume is an indication that you are a member of the women's officers cadet course? ahem.

Be seen and not heard.

oxford mushroom SG

division of labour does not truely mean that all girls become nurses or clerks doing admin work. just like not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers, neither are all girls meant to be nurses. to compare our situation with the israelis is a bit uncalled for. you must see beyond that two years that you are serving to that of the economy of the nation. we can conscript the girls into army for an equivalent two years. it might damage our economy, you might have to halve your current NS allowance.

Exactly...not all guys are cut out to be combat soldiers but they do not have the luxury of opting out. So why should girls be exempt if we are to be truly egalitarian?

The argument about the economy is tried and without basis. This is simply a regurgitation of an old argument. Firstly, how much do these girls contribute to the economy at 18? They are mostly students..Secondly, an 18-year old guy can contribute as much as an 18-year old girl to the economy. If the economy is really going to suffer that much by having all 18-year olds in national service, we can stagger NS so that both boys and girls can serve their 2 years of NS within a period of say, 10 years. If you want to let some of them out of NS to support the economy, fine...but let it be a 50:50 mix of the genders. Thirdly, having the girls in our pubic hospitals as assistant nurses will relieve the severe shortage of nursing staff, allows registered nurses to do higher-quality nursing work and by removing our reliance on foreign nurses, greatly improve the economy indeed. Remember a foreign assistant nurse is paid at least $800 a month. Most NS boys get a fraction of that..

Icemoon SG

I believe many girls actually attended OBS, made compulsory during their sec school. While it is not boot camp, at least they need teamwork, get close to nature, and rough it out.

If really want them to serve NS, then let them do nursing. During Pearl Harbor or even the Jap invasion of Singapore, nurses perform gallently, even with bombs dropping around them. The sight they see, blown limbs, bloody head, dying soldiers, won't lose to what guys see in battlefields.

iveco SG

You served in SPF, so it's a different story. No cheong suahing for you. Catching crooks does not require you to go outfield, does it?

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