Traditional Mass

Pope Nicholas SG

The Vatican Congregation of blah blah will tell whetehr a Pope has made an ex cathedra teaching.

Icemoon SG

How does that help to understand church infallibility and papal infallibility?

Pope Nicholas SG

OK im confused with what u are asking.

Are u asking what is church infallibility and papal infallibility?

Icemoon SG

Nope, you said I'm confused between the two, then you gave the big chunk of quote.

I said I don't understand.

Then you replied with your own words.

After that I asked how does your reply help me understand between the two.

Pope Nicholas SG

1) I tot u asked who decide what was ex cathedra or not - hence the quote

2) I am gg off to watch soccer. I recommend wikipedia article on Church Infallibility and on Papl infallibility. Any question, ask me tmr.

I must be a bloody hardcore 17yr old catholic.....sigh

Icemoon SG

yucks .. you tell me to read wiki when there is newadvent? Laughing

Pope Nicholas SG

Newadvent is very tough reading.

How old are u btw and wad do u do?

Icemoon SG

I know .. it is boring reading to me. Just that it is more authoritative than wikipedia (even though wiki kapo some parts from it) and I see the peeps here quoting from it.

SingaporeMacross SG

Communion on the tongue has always been the tradition of the Church. But Communion on the hand is legal.

Of course, I'm still going with tongue.

catinthehat SG

Tecnically the SSPX is not in schism and the Church agrees with that. To be in schism, one must renounce ties with the Roman Pontiff. However the SSPX recognises him as the Vicar of Christ but reject the novelties of Vatican 2. Their founder Levbre was excommunicated for ordainig 4 bishops without vatican approval which was a Schismatic act. The SSPX as a whole is not in schism.

I wish you'd read Pope John Paul II's motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei Adflicta" more clearly. Ya know, this is exactly what the Holy See says:

In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

Icemoon SG

Actually what's the difference since both will ultimately land on your tongue?

SingaporeMacross SG

1) Even the priest thinks he is unworthy to hold the Body and Blood of Christ. Do we the laity judge ourselves more worthy that he is?

2) What if someone takes it in my hands and keeps it in his pocket for Satanic rituals?

Icemoon SG

Did Mr Pope's arguments come from the same papal document?

Icemoon SG

1. oic .. so the problem is with the hands (i.e. not worthy to hold), not the tongue.

2. haha .. problem of robbery.

catinthehat SG

The Ecclesia Dei commission that John Paul II instituted has said the same. The commission declared that Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending Masses offered by SSPX priests. If the priests of the SSPX were in schism, the Ecclesia Dei commission would presumably not allow Catholics to frequent their Masses, since they would be allowing Catholics to worship outside the Church. This indicates that SSPX priests are not in fact in schism (for example, Catholics could not fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending liturgies offered by the schismatic priests of the Eastern Orthodox churches). The same commission has said that, so long as Catholics attend SSPX chapels out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass (and not because they want to separate themselves from the Roman Pontiff), such conduct is not sinful.

It looks like you are referring to this letter

http://www.unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm

What about this statement in the letter:

We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass

Is it not unambigous that Ecclesia Dei Commission (EDC) does not support Catholics attending the SSPX Masses?

You see, what this letter purports to do is to address technical questions - for example, it specifically mentions "in the strict sense" regarding fulfilling sunday obligation. But, brought into the larger context of the disobedience of the SSPX (which Pope John Paul II has himself declared), and also in the letter it mentions,

1.) The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but they are suspended from exercising their priestly functions

Also in an earlier letter, EDC says

[ur]http://www.unavoce.org/Protocol539-99.htm[/url]

The difficulty is that the longer they frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe the schismatic mentality which stands in judgement of the Church and refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of the Church subject to him. If that becomes the case, then it would seem that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated. For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you to frequent the chapel of the Society of St. Pius X.

Clearly, the EDC does not encourage Catholics to attend SSPX Masses at all, never mind that it is not sinful.

It is a dangerous thing to pick one part of the matter (attending SSPX masses are not sinful) and ignore the rest (The church does not encourage you to attend SSPX Masses because of the schismatic mentality of the SSPX). This is a manifestation of Cafeteria Catholicism.

Icemoon SG

Mr Pope tio pwned .. Twisted Evil

Icemoon SG

I think what Mr Pope can do is to bring his friend out of SSPX ‘cos his friend is supporting their cause.

Pope Nicholas SG

There is no problem if that is the only church in the area that offers Tridentine Mass. If a person merely attends Mass at an SSPX chapel out of love for the Traditional Latin Mass, including the piety it fosters and the theological clarity it provides, then such a person would not be in schism.

Again, I am only speaking to the lay Catholics attendance at SSPX chapels and the canonical status of the rest of the SSPX priests. If SSPX priests join the society out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass and do not intend to sever their union with the Holy Father, it is difficult to conclude that such men are schismatics. Most men become SSPX priests because of their devotion to tradition and the fact that their diocesan bishops would never let them celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass (which they have every right to do according to St. Pius Vs Quo Primum), or put unjust restrictions upon it (which is against the directives of John Paul II). How can such priests be in schism?

The EO church is no longer considered schismatics even though they reject papal authority but the SSPX priest who consider the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, follow the church infallible teachings and more importantly wishes to stick to Tradition are schismatics. Ur logic is flawed.

The Holy See regard its founder as Schismatics but not its priest if they do not sever ties with the Holy See. Lay ppl who attend thier masses are not in SIN if their parish do not have it.

I REPEAT I DO NOT SYMPATHISE WITH THEM AT ALL. BUT IM ARGUING ITS PERFECTLY LAWFUL TO ATTEND THIER MASSES IF U WANT TO GO FOR A TRIDENTINE MASS.

Pope Nicholas SG

1) Only consecretated hands can touch the Eucharist.

2) In USA they are used in teh Black Mass

catinthehat SG

If SSPX priests join the society out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass and do not intend to sever their union with the Holy Father, it is difficult to conclude that such men are schismatics. Most men become SSPX priests because of their devotion to tradition and the fact that their diocesan bishops would never let them celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass (which they have every right to do according to St. Pius Vs Quo Primum), or put unjust restrictions upon it (which is against the directives of John Paul II). How can such priests be in schism?

To heed Pope John Paul II's advice of maintaining unity, such priests have an option (many options, in fact) within the visible Church. There is no need to go to the SSPX. You can join the Fraternity of St Peter.

Even if "SSPX priests join the society out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass ", it does not change the fact that once they are ordained by an SSPX bishop, according to the law of the church, they are suspended from exercising their faculties to celebrate the sacraments.

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