Traditional Mass

last SG · 2006-12-23T21:01:53+00:00

Communion on the tongue has always been the tradition of the Church. But Communion on the hand is legal. Of course, I'm still going with tongue.

Icemoon SG

Sure or not? According to that letter,

"You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a 'right' to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct. It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but he has not stated that it is a 'right'. Presently it constitutes an exception to the Church's law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. Every Catholic has a right to the sacraments (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 843), but he does not have a right to them according to the rite of his choice."

Pope Nicholas SG

He holds dear to the Church infallible teachings, recognises the Pope, consider the Novus Ordo mass as valid though seriously inadequate, superiority of Tridentine Mass and reject the novelties of Vatican 2 (the fallible ones).

Not in schism

Icemoon SG

Then the question remains why he has to join the SSPX ..

Icemoon SG

SSPX makes for a very interesting case study. How come they are like ou3 duan4 si1 lian2 to Rome?

They should just re-union with Rome. Maybe can join FSSP .. haha

Pope Nicholas SG

We recall that Pope Saint Pius Vs Quo Primum gives every Latin Rite Catholic the right to attend the Traditional Latin Mass, and every priest the right to celebrate the Traditional Mass, forever. The Traditional Latin Mass is an immemorial custom of the Church, dating back to Saints Leo and Gregory the Great, and the Holy Ghost would never allow it to be obliterated. Even Paul VI stated that the Novus Ordo did not repeal, no, could not repeal, the Traditional Latin Mass.

Pope Saint Pius V has definitively declared that Catholics should not have any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure for attending the Traditional Latin Mass. Again, we need more guidance from the Church on the situation of the SSPX.

Ecclesia Dei, the Pope stated that "respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition" (which, in context, referred to the Tridentine form of the Roman Rite), and urged bishops to give "a wide and generous application" to the provisions of the previous document.

This mean that the Bishop should allow a priest to conduct a tridentine mass if he had asked. However since many bishops are hostile to this, many catholics are forced to turn to the SSPX to particpate in teh Tridentine Mass.

Pope Nicholas SG

They are in union with Rome. They never reject Papal authroity hence they cant be considered in schism.

Icemoon SG

This is baffling. Why would bishops be hostile to this? They never read Quo Primum ah?

Actually if people turn to SSPX just for the Mass (what else is exciting there?), the simple solution would be to allow the Tridentine in one place once or twice a week. Or once a month, like the gregory chant liddat.

Now we are having it like once or twice a year here! Mad

Icemoon SG

wait .. I don't think they are in union with Rome. How is union defined?

If they are in union, how come they cannot execute their priest duties from what we have read above?

catinthehat SG

We recall that Pope Saint Pius Vs Quo Primum gives every Latin Rite Catholic the right to attend the Traditional Latin Mass, and every priest the right to celebrate the Traditional Mass, forever.

Seriously, do you have any idea of what was happening at 1570 when Quo Primum was issued?
[/quote]

Icemoon SG

I think Mr Pope reads too much wikipedia and not original documents.

At least catinthehat quotes original documents.

catinthehat SG

Icemoon, there are many reasons why Bishops are not so generous with the Traditional Mass. I can provide u with a few:

1. Many have encountered combative SSPX people who go up to them and demand and argue and so on, not being polite and respectful at all.

2. Many priests have emotional baggage against the traditional Mass. You saw for yourself how complicated it was.

3. Since it is so complicated, priests who know the new rite only, need to go and undergo training on how to do the traditional Mass. Sometimes they can't because they're so busy! So the bishop can't grant permission simply because there's no available priest.

Pope Nicholas SG

The case of the Hawaii six also bears this out. Those excommunications would not have been lifted if those six Catholics were attending Masses offered by schismatic priests. Moreover, if the SSPX priests are suspended, and thus still subject to the Churchs disciplinary laws, they cannot be schismatics who are outside the Church. You cannot be outside the Church and still subject to her canon law. This is a legal impossibility.

OK i agree. My knowledge on the SSPX is rather limited. I do belive however the Masses they conduct is valid as any priest can conduct a tridentine mass. I feel there isnt a problem if u go to a SSPX church just to attend tidentine mass (if u parish do not have one). It is obvious that we need further guidance from the Church on this matter.

Can someone enlighten me on the pro-multis? i heard POpe Benedict XVI is changing the Novus Ordo to meet it....

Pope Nicholas SG

But the priest who joined the SSPX did so mainly because the seminaries refused to train them in the traditional rite?

catinthehat SG

Moreover, if the SSPX priests are suspended, and thus still subject to the Churchs disciplinary laws, they cannot be schismatics who are outside the Church. You cannot be outside the Church and still subject to her canon law. This is a legal impossibility.

The problem with the SSPX priests is that they behave as though the laws do not apply to them, which, although not in schism, behave in a manner which will lead one to it. Take an analogy - you may not be a drug addict yet, but taking small amounts of drugs will slowly lead u to become one.

Give you another example. If a religious order wants to set up shop in a diocese, it has to seek the permission of the Bishop to do so. But the SSPX does not care. Just check with the local Archbishop Smile

I do belive however the Masses they conduct is valid as any priest can conduct a tridentine mass. I feel there isnt a problem if u go to a SSPX church just to attend tidentine mass (if u parish do not have one). It is obvious that we need further guidance from the Church on this matter.

You said earlier that you dun sympathise with them. Great to hear that, and please keep on reading up more about your faith, as well as praying for your priests and asking God for His graces to help you in your faith.

We already know what to do when you want to attend a tridentine Mass. Ecclesia Dei says, don't go to the SSPX. Those who attended the recent FSSP Mass in Singapore patiently waited 16 months for it, knowing that it is more important to maintain unity with the Church. If you have the means, you can fly to Hong Kong - they have it once every 2 weeks. HK Tridentine Mass Community I saved up in order to do so earlier this year.

Can someone enlighten me on the pro-multis? i heard POpe Benedict XVI is changing the Novus Ordo to meet it....

here Arinze on Pro Multis

Essentially, this means that, any new translation has to translate "pro multis" as "for many". And since a new English translation is in progress, we certainly will see "for many" in the words of the consecration, when the new English translation of the New Rite is released.

catinthehat SG

But the priest who joined the SSPX did so mainly because the seminaries refused to train them in the traditional rite?

For those who join the SSPX, well... err... I don't know. Maybe they are taken in by the SSPX propaganda.

But I really want to emphasize. There are options within the Catholic church, like the FSSP, if you want to be trained in the traditional rite.

Pope Nicholas SG

Actually its mainly because

1) They cant train in the traditional rite in the seminaries
2) They are not allowed to practise the Traditional Rite
3) They wish to save the church from the perils of modernism ( propoganda)

Icemoon SG

All these are no excuses for insubordination. Mr. Green

Pope Nicholas SG

The SSPX uses Canon Law to prove its not unsubordination. I seen enough of it haha.

I intend to speak to my parish priest to ask him abt it.

Icemoon SG

Insubordination is defined with respect to the magistrium, not canon law.

Unless it is against moral law, you will be insurbordinating if you refuse to follow orders of your superior officer or higher HQ.

Icemoon SG

You better be polite. The topic is kinda taboo.

Wait they interrogate ask what's your relationship with them.

« Previous Page Next Page »