Blood Sacrifice

last SG · 2013-01-20T16:32:12+00:00

If God exists, then God would have told us how to get right with Him. Surely this would have implications for your 8 fold path. Buddha did not claim to hear...

[imdestinyz] SG

I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.

The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk. That you would even think of this might perhaps well reflect the level of mentality I'm actually dealing with! ; )

I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.

Even if they have perfectly followed it, i do not think it is of buddhist nature that the person announces that he has perfectly followed it. Henceforth, i doubt there will really be documentation on that.

zeus29 SG

I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.

I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.

"I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me." -> sorry, i can't sense what you're sensing but are you kidding me? i'm having a hell lot of fun here, no pun intended ;). that's why i check so often. i think many here can tell.

There are just so many open questions and your replies only create more open questions. also, it's quite interesting to see from your point of view and understand your misconceptions about buddhism. i'm sure many out there have the same miscomceptions about buddhism ie praying to statues etc.

"ad hominem" -> by asking questions to your replies? but there's nothing personal involved. just to recap its definition which i trust you already know prior to using the word. Definition of AD HOMINEM –

1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

I doubt I fit any of the 2 definitions base on my limited knowledge. Pretty much direct questions-answers-questions to me.

"The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk." -> and yet you said, "anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death." so, you're suggesting observing the 8 fold path since birth, no? you wrote a specific timeline which is "100% from birth to death" and then said "That you would even think of this ". so, pray tell how else should one have thought of it?

"I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes." -> and I'm saying why not? from my earlier post which you haven't responded.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?

2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?

3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?

4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?

5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?

6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?

7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?

8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?

Eightfold path says right view, right speech etc. to set the context and us to fill in the contents. For example, lets say I'm vegetarian. Today I eat choy sam, tomorrow mushroom, the following day broccoli. All vegetarian. What's perfect vegetarian?

on a different note, you still haven't responded to my earlier post about jesus's lost years." So, where was he and what was he doing? "

Dawnfirstlight SG

"I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me." -> i can't sense what you're sensing but are you kidding me? i'm having a hell lot of fun here, no pun intended ;). that's why i check so often. i think many here can tell. and there are so many open questions and your replies just create more open questions. also, it's so interesting to see from your point of view and understand misconceptions about buddhism. i'm sure many out there have the same miscomceptions about buddhism ie praying to statues etc.

"ad hominem" -> by asking questions to your replies? there's no person involved, right? ;)

"The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk." -> and yet you said, "anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death." so, you're suggesting observing the 8 fold path since birth, no? you wrote a specific timeline that's "birth to death" and then said "That you would even think of this ". so, how else should one have thought it?

"I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes." -> and we're saying why not? from my earlier post which you haven't responded.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?

2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?

3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?

4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?

5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?

6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?

7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?

8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?

on a different note, you still haven't responded to my earlier post about jesus's lost years." So, where was he and what was he doing? "

About Jesus' lost years, the following video clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9w-xJfSOyc

An Eternal Now SG

The point I was also driving at is whether you know of anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death. Since you said there were countless people having done so from 500BC till today, I suppose it would not be difficult for you to drop some names of historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?

First of all, it is not so possible to observe the 8 fold path from birth because you were born ignorant. However from the point you start practicing, you are practicing to overcome ignorance, and when you are fully liberated then the three unwholesome roots or poisons of passions, aggression and delusion will be uprooted. Then from that point on your noble 8 fold path will be flawless and accomplished.

Examples? Buddha, of course, for one. His countless arahant disciples numbering thousands or tens of thousands, of which I cannot name all right now because there are too many, but you may want to check out his top ten disciples who are arahants - e.g. sariputta, mogallana, mahakassapa, etc etc.

An Eternal Now SG

I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.

I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.

If you practice the dharma, attain wisdom, eradicate the three poisons, then you are already freed from passion, aggression and delusion thus your noble eightfold path is already accomplished and you have attained the goal of liberation.

From that point on, if you are an arahant, you do not need to be endlessly reborn in samsara "for countless lifetimes" since you already attained nirvana.

From the point you are an arahant, it is impossible for you to give rise to any passion, attachment, craving, lust, aggression, hatred, violence, fear, jealousy, pride, delusion, etc etc. Not one single thought of it is possible anymore, for your entire life, yes. One also completely eradicates any conceit of 'I am', any sense of self is completely eradicated via wisdom.

It may sound like an impossible task, well it is truly impossible, if one is trying to force them out of mind by suppression. A Buddhist does not force afflictive emotions out of mind by suppression. We practice vipassana meditation to gain insight into the impermanent, unsatisfactory, non-self and empty nature of everything, and this wisdom leads to dispassion and release of our defilements. When the roots of defilements and delusion are eradicated, our afflictions are also overcome from the root.

i.e. we do not merely trim off the leaves (treat the symptoms) but uproot the disease from its roots (i.e. ignorance, delusion) so that it will never grow again ever.

zeus29 SG

About Jesus' lost years, the following video clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9w-xJfSOyc

Yup I mentioned Tibet and India earlier but he disagreed.

zeus29 SG

We practice vipassana meditation to gain insight into the impermanent, unsatisfactory, non-self and empty nature of everything, and this wisdom leads to dispassion and release of our defilements. When the roots of defilements and delusion are eradicated, our afflictions are also overcome from the root.

i.e. we do not merely trim off the leaves (treat the symptoms) but uproot the disease from its roots (i.e. ignorance, delusion) so that it will never grow again ever.

Totally agreed. It's said that prince siddharta gautama achieved enlightenment through vipassana which he discovered and through it, he managed to removed all his sancarras.

I highly recommend one to learn about this technique. It's completely free. Lodging and meals are all paid for by previous students. All that the course ask of one is one's time and perseverance not to quit during the course.

www.dhamma.org

Spnw07 SG

To add in a little to the vigorous discussion, all Buddhas have already conquered suffering and death prior to them appearing as humans to us.

All Buddhas to be, or highly enlightened Bodhisattvas, descend from their heavenly abodes to undergo their last rebirths as a human being and achieve full awakening of their Buddha nature due to timely fruition of countless past lives' worth of spiritual diligence.

As mentioned by one commenter in this thread or maybe other threads, all Buddhas can choose to live as long as they desire, as long as they see that there are still sentient beings of their era who will benefit from spiritual guidance by a Buddha in human form. Generally speaking, a Buddha will not choose to live exceedingly longer than the average life span of sentient beings in his era.

On the main topic of blood sacrifice, other than folk or occult practices, I can't help but to think of Hari Raya Haji, where sheep, goats and cows are mass-slaughtered on this particular day to commemorate Prophet Ibrahim's readiness to sacrifice his own flesh and blood. In the Buddhist context, blood sacrifices for any kind of living being are regarded as unwholesome actions, but generally Buddhists will not go about pointing this out, saying the Buddha said so, unless the questioner is sincerely interested in understanding the Buddhist point of view.

zeus29 SG

I wonder if broinchrist confused 8fold path with the 8 precepts.

The Eight Precepts:

1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.

2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.

3. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.

4. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.

5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

6. I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon).

7. I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing, singing, music, going to see entertainments, wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics.

8. I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.

______________________________

Usually, a lay person is encouraged to take the basic 5 precepts not necessary the 8 precepts.

The five precepts are:

1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life.

2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given.

3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct.

4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness.

______________________________

for me, i much prefer precepts to the ten commandments. notice the "i undertake the precept to ....." rather than "thou shalt not ......."

i wonder which approach one prefers - a doctor telling one that smoking is harmful and advise one to refrain from doing so OR government telling one must not / can not smoke? :)

sinweiy SG

I wonder if broinchrist confused 8fold path with the 8 precepts.

haha...possible... :)

reborn76 SG

A missionary went to India and saw the Indian making goat and chicken sacrifice to Goddess Kali. He said, “Hindu worships a blood thirsty goddess.” The next trip, he went to Taiwan and saw a family offering prayer to Tu Di Gong with cook chicken, duck and roast pig. He said, “ The Chinese also worships a blood and meat hunger god.” He concludes and proclaims that all pagan god and goddess are blood thirsty in nature; therefore it must be devilish in origin.

A lay man point out to him, didn’t the bible wrote that the God of Israel require his children to make sacrifices to him with blood of dove if you are poor, a lamb if you are rich to atone for the sin. In fact, Abraham was praise by God for having faith in desiring to sacrifice his son, Issac. It was said, none of this sacrifice SATISFIES him until JESUS, his only son was sacrifice. Don’t you think your GOD is also blood thirsty as the pagan gods. Since blood sacrifice is associate with the devil, the man begins to doubt the origin of the Christian god.

Well Bro In Christ, perhaps the sacrifice was about teaching man kind to love one another. The resurrection was about having a symbolic icon of new beginning when we fall. Whether Jesus did rose from dead is debatable, the eye witness were not historian. Do you know the 4 gospel were not written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John as proclaimed by the church. Perhaps Resurrection was a symbol of hope for the early churches to endure the persecution. Besides, they believe that Jesus is coming back at the turn of century AD 100 which did not took place. That’s y, u r reading this.

If you take a look at today, one wonders where is God?
when the prosperity preachers is living out a expensive lifestyle out of the Christian hard earned money,

when the priest abuse the innocent

when disaster strike at New Zealand, America and Asia

when people is dying of hunger

when girls turn to prositution

when a heroine is injecting drug to escape the abusive environment

If God is as powerful, omniscience and omnipresence as per what is proclaim, why did he not intervene? Why does he allow suffering to exist?

Perhaps u may find the answer by turning to your belief, as much as the Buddhist in the forum can find ours through the Buddha teaching. As Dalai Lama has said, the religion that can make you a better person is the best religion for you.

Aik TC SG

If you take a look at today, one wonders where is God?
when the prosperity preachers is living out a expensive lifestyle out of the Christian hard earned money,

when the priest abuse the innocent

when disaster strike at New Zealand, America and Asia

when people is dying of hunger

when girls turn to prositution

when a heroine is injecting drug to escape the abusive environment

If God is as powerful, omniscience and omnipresence as per what is proclaim, why did he not intervene? Why does he allow suffering to exist?

Well said.

zeus29 SG

Interesting view.

Steveyboy SG

In Tibetan Buddhism, we do have a sacrificial offerings that are called wrathful offerings. These come in form of 7 bowls of representation of the chopped up remains of a man that is symbolic of our ego, obstacles, and negative karma. Although the actual offering is visualized in its full gory details but the actual physical offering is just repesentations of each element. Just thought I share an interesting aspect of the teachings here.

BroInChrist SG

OK, this would seem to confirm my point that the claim of countless people being enlightened and attaining Nirvana up to the present time has no empirical/documentary support at all. I suppose It is just a claim made by followers who themselves do not actually know of anyone who has attained enlightenment and nirvana?

BroInChrist SG

1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

I doubt I fit any of the 2 definitions base on my limited knowledge. Pretty much direct questions-answers-questions to me.

"I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes." -> and I'm saying why not? from my earlier post which you haven't responded.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?

2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?

3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?

4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?

5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?

6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?

7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?

8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?

on a different note, you still haven't responded to my earlier post about jesus's lost years." So, where was he and what was he doing? "

Your point about my mentality was an obvious ad hominem remark which apparently you were oblivious to.

Fine, since the choice of my words "birth to death" can be so interpreted that I am of such low mentality to think that babies can talk or make decisions, I shall clarify that I use that term to mean one's entire life time. So I am asking whether a person can claim that he has complied and observed the 8 fold path in his life time. Is that now better to you? So you replied that this can be done and has been done. Do you actually personally know of such a person, or have heard of him/her?

BTW, there is a claim made that when Buddha was borned he took 7 steps and said some words which I think you would believe is false? (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Gautama_Buddha#Birth).

I thought I had answered your point about so-called Jesus lost years. One needs to be careful not to impose modern ideas of a biography into ancient times. People back then did not think that it requires a record of one's whole life from birth to death. Anyway, the Gospels recorded the birth of Jesus, His going to the temple at 12 years old with a concluding statement that He went back with His earthly parents and were obedient to them. Then it goes to the beginning of His ministry about 30 years old where it mentioned that Jesus has a custom of attending the synagogue. Using some logical inference, if He had been in India would this statement have made any sense?

Moreover, one should always employ some measure of skepticism whenever such "new" knowledge comes out in recent years attempting to overhaul what has been the mainstream view of things. The fact that this notion arose in the last two centuries should have given you pause, but I suppose everyone loves a groundshaking for Christianity so much so that such wacky and flakey claims receive a lot of attention and promotion.

I recommend that you read this http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/historicaljesus/historicaljesus.htm

BroInChrist SG

In other words, would you agree that since no one is born a Buddhist, and before one becomes a buddhist in life there would have been negative karma accumulated from young? Even then, after becoming a Buddhist it is unlikely that one will perfectly observe the 8 fold path. Naming the Buddha and his disciples are just 2500 years too far away. But if you know of someone who has perfectly observed it, out of countless many, I would be interested to know of such people currently living or in recent years.

BroInChrist SG

Have you personally met a person whose 8 fold path is already accomplished and liberated? How is he like? Is he married? Have children? Working? Driving?

BroInChrist SG

To add in a little to the vigorous discussion, all Buddhas have already conquered suffering and death prior to them appearing as humans to us.

Correct me on this, but I thought that if one is born into this life that means he is still in the wheel of samsara? So how can Buddhas who have conquered suffering and death still be born into human line? Why go through the last rebirth at all? I think that once you are born into this world you would be accumulating negative karma because as a growing kid you would probably lie, cheat, beat other kids, bully other kids, etc

Also, if Buddhas are enlightened and attained nirvana, how come they can still have the "self" to exercise a conscious choice to overcome the law of nirvana or karma and come back to help people? I mean, wouldn't they be "snuff out" like a candle going off?

[imdestinyz] SG

an enlightened person, would not see the purpose in documenting that he/she has attained nirvana. I think you've made a baseless assumption here. or that, you've choosen to interpret it the christianity way.

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